[mark yundt]

Oh Susan ,me too,,don't get me wrong. But as the topic of say,,modern art which has come up here from time to time is any indication,,who is to judge? I myself have seen paint by numbers that look better than Grandma Moses,,truthfully ,,I don't see the brilliance in it,,then again who is to say everyone should paint like Raphael or Da'vinci? Is a painting or retouched photo of a tomato soup can really great? Some will say so. Someone somewhere thinks they can judge it. Paint spilled on a canvas? Want me to judge that?
Or what if someone here IS doing an interpretive piece,,or simply lacks the strength or has some disability to do chisel or knife carving,,I've seen the responses that blurt out " I don't like this type of carving,,it's not that good" WOW,,,Should everyone do exquisite ,,highly detailed,,realistic carvings? I don't think so.
And what Doris said is so true. I myself took a bird to a major show. I had great carvers critique it since it didn't win. I came home,,parked my car,,got the piece out of the trunk,,headed straight to the bandsaw,,cut it's head off and poured laquer thinner all over it. That's after 200 hours or so of carving. Could have sold it for several thousand no problem. But I just couldn't. I knew what I thought were flaws,,they pointed out ones I didnt' see. After that the piece had no meaning for me and might as well have been firewood. I later cut up the body and made 3 songbirds out of the duck. Then again,,that's just me. How would a new carver feel?


Well Doris,,I wasn't going to name names,,but there you go ,,perfect example. It's still not finished. What a shame,,,shouldn't have,,,and didn't have to happen. Though the thoughts and intentions were honorable..

[Irish]

Amen, Good Sir! Amen!!!! I, for one, will stick to encouragement as a way of posting.

Susan

As for Andy's Campbell Soup Can I'd love to have that discussion with you one day. But this thread is not the place nor time

[doris]

ouch, yes same feeling with that bird... you point out a very important point, mark, that often is not considered... every person here has different goals with their carving, some want spend a nice few hours feeling the peace when the knife or gouge slides through the wood, some want make some gifts for friends, some carve for selling, some want reach more...

each goal has same positive value, ...

and each goal requires a different mindset of the person who critiqes the work, the person giving critique should really know what the carver intends. but that is most of the time not the case...

[Ron Davidson]

I agree with Susan that if someone wants a critic either use the WCI magazine or post it here on the forum. If you know your carving you will know where you think the weak points are that you need help with at least I usually do and ask what everyone thinks needs to be done to address the problem. I myself have not much chance in being a critic unless I can put my hands on it so I rely on the people here to hopefully steer me in the right direction. But you are also right in the fact that most times you get more pats on the back instead of CONTRUCTIVE ADVICE. I don't mean a bashing like I have taken in a few PMs just good plain comments like it's hard to distinguish the corner of the building in the carving and then suggest a way to help if you have a way. It's not hard to do just choose your words and read them back to yourself to make sure it dosen't sound harsh or demeaning to the receiver. It would be nice if everyone had things thay posted read back to them in a computer generated voice so you could realy hear how what you type sounds. It all seems pretty simple to me I don't think we need a special area for critic's.
Ron

[mark yundt]

One other point that I believe has been missed here is the nature of "judging" The most familiarity everyone has with it is at a show. That type of judging has no bearing on this topic.
At a show,,most styles or types of carvings are done together with other similar carvings. The judging then is really reduced to picking the best piece of the lot. The one that ultimately wins isn't necessarily a great carving,,don't kid yourself,,it just happens to be the best one that showed up that day compared to the others to choose from.
You could take that winning carving and probabaly critique it to no end. It's not necessarily good.

If you go to grade school art shows,,you can easily pick out the better pieces. Does that mean they can stand shoulder to shoulder with say,,a Da'vinci?
Now how does that relate to looking at one specific piece,,out of reference ,,,no comparisons to choose from? This is a different animal all together. This is tough to do. Judging at a show is relatively easy.

[Kenny_S]

You are correct as are several others here but the point "has been missed"! Why isn't there more critiques? Is it they don't have anything good or bad to say about a carving? many does even when asked. I included.
The wheel has been invented long ago, so do we reinvent it again. I think not. Many have asked for their carvings to be critiqued but,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Here is a challengeto all of you. When I post a picture of a carving,I ask for comments good or bad so critique away, I have broad shoulders and a fabby butt. Well not as fabby as it use to be. Now folks can we just get back to getting along and enjoy what we do instead of stirring a post again? Personally, I am not a member of this board to read Threads that are meant to stir the pot. Nuff of that in the political arena for sure.

Best to all of you and,

[susieq]

The whole point of having a critique thread would be that you post in that thread knowing you will be setting yourself up for this. That would be the whole point of having this a separate thread from all others.

You would NEVER offer a critique unless it was to work posted in this thread for the purpose of being politely but honestly critiqued. For those who only want encouragement with no serious critique, they would only continue to post in the other threads. It would actually be a designated area for this and serious critques would be off limits everywhere else in the forum..... I think it would be a safety net actually. It would protect people from being blind sided by unwelcome comments when they weren't looking for that.

The only part if this that I consider risky is trusting the folks doing the critiques to be responsible in their comments. There will always be the risk of hurt feelings but even as things are now, it happens in the rest of the forum from time to time. It is easy to read the wrong things into any post and make it something that was never intended by the poster.

Having said all that, I really do love the "cheer leader" atmosphere of our forum. A true Critic's corner might never even get used. I'm not sure I would post something in there unless I was having trouble and was looking for someone else's perspective.....

To quote Dante, "abandon hope, all ye who enter here"....

[Kenny_S]

Understood that susieq, but will everyone use it for critiquing carvings Probably not. Me thinks Bob has enough on his hands now.

Hey I have no problem with a seperate title but the "point is", we already have the critiqueing capabilility now, in all catagories. Right?
As far as I can see from viewing thousands of post over the years I have been a member, that capability isn't being use .

Just my observation on the subject.

[mark yundt]

Having said all that, I really do love the "cheer leader" atmosphere of our forum. A true Critic's corner might never even get used. I'm not sure I would post something in there unless I was having trouble and was looking for someone else's perspective.....(susieq)

Well if that's the case then is a critique what you really need or do you need to post a general question on how to carve or fix something?That's WIP ,,here is what I'm doing,,I need help with this section,,what do you guys think. When the piece is done and ready for critique then it's too late.

I personally have had carvers critique my work as it's in progress. But I didn't send it out for all to see,,I sent pics to specific carvers. I chose people who I believed have specific knowledge in certain areas. Birds go to bird carvers,,sculpture to ones who have done them ,,architectural to those knowledgeable about that area.
My wife who has a very good eye cannot critique my birds for example and she has seen me do several dozen. She might say " why don't you have these feathers here lay over these,,that would look good,,or change the shape of these so they look more like those" Sure ,it might look nice to the average person,,but birds aren't arranged like that. Fellow bird carvers and ornithologists confirm it. And this all changes from species to species.
Even consider as Susan said. We both looked at,,and in a sense critiqued a famous painting. We both literally and figuratively saw it from two different perspectives. That was just our interpretation of the arrangement of the piece,,we didn't even approach the actual techniques.Now what would have happend if 6,8,10 people were picking apart just one of your carvings,,and you now have 10 different opinions? What is solved?

Who here really wants their piece taken apart like this? I was only getting warmed up,,where do you stop?

If it's under the banner of "I want to learn so I don't make the same mistakes" reason for critiques there are better ways to do it I believe. Show the piece in WIP for example or whatever area you tend to haunt and hang out. Ask a specific question for an area you are having difficulty with. Ask early on in the work,,even at the drawing stage about an area you anticipate difficulty for guidance and input early on when you can still do something about it. How many have said,,
"gee I wish I would have known as I was carving this piece" When its done,,it's too late,you'll only end up resenting and not liking the piece. Forever you'll only see the mistakes.

PM someone whos work is similar,,but most likely you feel is better than yours,,that can direct you to where you want to be.They already know the ins and outs,,what to watch for and how to correct it. They've been there and solved the problems already. I tend to trust that opinion more than using a shot gun approach if I really want to solve a problem or answer a specific question. Most people here I tend to think will try to help another.We all seem to like to share knowledge,,and the best of the lot,,,do it for free. They aren't giving away the keys to Fort Knox,,There is no Hocus Pocus here,,helping you actually helps them just as much. At least that's how I feel when I answer a question or show my carvings in stages or do a tutorial for someone. I don't answer it at some other site or blog so I can make a couple of bucks off all of you,,or try to raise my hit count,,that would be lame.It's all right here,,for all to see and benefit from. Watch me struggle,,watch me fix it,,see the finished product. Got a question,,I'll answer it the best I can right here,,no reason to go anywhere else.
I'm not unusual,,,that's what we are all here for...or should be.

[susieq]

Well the majority has spoken and it sounds like most of us would not use the Critic's Corner. I just wanted to play devil's advocate here. As I said in my last post, not sure if I would use it either.... If everyone is happy with the way things are then that old addage, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" applies here. I still think if there were to be Critiques given out, there should be a dedicated thread for it and it should be off limits everywhere else in the forum. That was my one and only point. Sounds like the point is moot now.
And it is true, that Bob D has quite enough on his hands without keeping track of something as possibly controvisal as this might be.
.