[mark yundt]

I too believe Susan has many valid points.

[A Willburger]

I sent the private message to GaryMc and critiqued his piece.
I may be too sensitive and I don't want to be the bad guy even though I chose my words carefully.
It is hard to say something when you have ten people before you saying looks good, Great ,awesome no critique here and I see a problem in their carving.
I have carved for over twenty years and I have a box full of ribbons and two best of shows and if you look at my carvings in the gallery I know I have something to share if someone asks.

Andy

[mark yundt]

Yes Andy,,you do have something to share and have many valid points. Having a critical eye is something developed over time. And I don't mean critical as in criticizing something instead it's in regard to knowing what to look for. I had said over a year ago that in the gallery every post is a 10. I knew that wasn't realistic. So those 10 's are based on what knowledge? Are they a polite way of saying good job without having to actually rate something less than a 10. Would someone be hurt if you posted a 5,7,or a 9? Can most people be objective enough where it's a friends carving,,someone they might not care for,,or a style of carving they might not like,,or a style they have no knowledge of,familiarity with or ability to do and know what it's supposed to actually look like?

How many people say Wow,,that's a great carving 'cause it's more than I can do. Great,,but how valueable is that? Is that someone who should judge? Just because it's "better" than they can do any carving then is a 10. but is it really justified? Would caricatures be judged on how big a laugh or how clever the situation? Would Architectural work be judged on it's intricacy regardless of the period in history it represents as many styles are fairly plain. How many out there can make that call? Do they know the proper proportions of a capital and what makes them work? Can most distinguish flat plane style from merely having a chiseled look? Many have a hard time carving birds let alone painting them,,who would judge these. It may look like a bird to most,,and you can recognize it as a cardinal,,but is is really accurate? Does the carver want to approach world class carving,,or are they just having fun making pieces that look like birds? I've studied them for years and had boxes of ribbons,,does that qualify me to judge not knowing someones intentions for doing the carving? And who wants to take it that far. They might be whittling birds,,and if that's the case it's a 10,,World Class,,well,,maybe a 1,,at best.Who is going to make that call?

What's the answer? I truly don't know. I just know there are too many questions in my mind. I don't think I'd want that responsibility though I like to think I have a fairly decent eye for this stuff. Keep posting pics,,ask what people think,,if you have a specific problem then just ask how to solve it. Once you spend any time on the board you can pretty quickly separate the wheat from the chaff,,the genuine thoughtfullness of a reply and honest answer to the simply fluff and unknowing.And if some statements are known to be rude or offensive should any of us be surprised if they do get deleted by the "midnight sensors"? probably shouldn't have been posted in the first place if that was already known.Why be mystified.

[Irish]

Perhaps it is because I tend to hang out on either the WIP, Relief Carving or Pyro threads of this board but really I see little need to create a whole new thread for critics.

On any of these three thread areas all a person needs to do is ask for help, suggestions, ideas or instructions for techniques and they will get multiple responses.

Ashby in WIP - Napoleon in Progress this week commented that he thought his carving would have a support/structural problem. Mark Yundt, Doris and I all chipped in ideas. We even had a really great in-depth discussion of the design principles behind the reference image that Garry is using.

There were several different suggestions offered, several different interpretations of the reference photo and just some great sharing of experience. No fights, no criticism not even a tad of shouting at each other Just a very good spirited debate with the soul purpose of thinking through Garry's dilemma.

These type of in depth discussions happen in Relief Carving and the Pyro area all the time!!!! And we who hang out there share ideas as suggestions not as Rules written in Stone.

I, personally, don't want a critic of my work ... WHY? ... Because critics come AFTER the work is done when I can't go back and use the ideas, thoughts, techniques or suggestions that you could offer me.

Even if your citric is fantastic I probably am not going to take off the sealer, take off the painting, re-carve the areas then do the painting and sealing again .... just not something that I would do. Instead I would most likely put that finished work in some box in some closet because after you had given me some good ideas I would only see that carving as a disaster/wrong/bad carving ... and that is after about 15 years of carving! What is a newbie going to think.

But then I seldom (never) post a carving after I am completely finished with it. I would rather post the WIP so that I can soak up, absorb and use any and all suggestions that come along from you. When I'm done that carving I will walk away knowing that I have done my BEST and that you helped.

Please, if you want suggestions try starting your thread or first posting with:

1. I'm at this stage in the carving and need some ideas for where to go next ...

2. I'm not sure if this area is really working yet or not, does anyone have any ideas???

3. or just plain HELP! It is my experience that any thread that starts with HELP gets hundreds of hits

While we are waiting for BobD to decide if a critic thread is needed and if so to create the guidelines send several photos of your work directly to Fox Chapel Publishing. Their magazine does a regular Critic Corner and the critics come from their core base of professional carvers and authors. So you will know that the person that is judging your work has the credentials do offer good suggestions. Plus those critics (the articles not the ones doing the judging ) are blind, the critic does not know who did the work so only the carving not the carver is judged.

Susan

[Kenny_S]

I pretty well speak my mind but this is not to offend anyone here.
Oh good grief, Another pot stirred.
Hey y'll, that be southern talk fer you all. Any pictured posted here by anyone can be critiqued but I will say, mostly very little is said except good job, great paint job etc. I know, I say the same thing so it isn't pointing fingers at anyone.
Why a seperate place? Don't you know, y'll can critiques "any" picture that is posted. Do "you"do it. Not hardly.

I will also say that I have asked for Comments good or bad on almost every carving I have posted. Vdery little if any bad. So what's the beef here.

Just an observation of over 6 years on the board.

Now y'll get back to carving ya hear!

[doris]

giving, and receiving, critique is really a very difficult thing...

yes, many of us would want some more constructive comments on their carvings, but at the same time at the moment we finish a carving we are proud of what we achieved, and , at least with me, that is the most vulnarable time....
i do have a friend, who in my opinion understands a lot about art, though is not an artist, and this friend does give me honest critique. and more often than not, even though i want hear what is good, what might be better and how i can improve, and even though it is said in the most sensible words, and i see gestures and mimic and all, i need take all my guts together to take the critique for what it is meant, namely helping me..... and that feeling of getting "attacked" by the critique is still there, though i expereinced so far, that all the comments and suggestions made turned out be to the point later when i considered them with calmed down emotions... on the other hand, since i receive honest critique from that friend, when an surprised exclamation comes, like "wow, that turned out beautiful" it weighs in even more to me...

i guess, this feeling i have is shared my many, and that is why we so rarely do give critique even if it is asked for. since we know how we crinch when reading what we wanted know...

critique influences a lot, ...

on the other hand this is a tool for learning...

i gave several times, when a member here at wci asked for comments and critique, helpful (at least i thought so) comments. but most of the time i had afterwards, from the following posts, the feeling it would have been better i had said nothing...

i think, i would not vote for a critics corner,... even though other members not learn by that approach, i liked when i also got a helpful critique by pm. somehow, its more private, and easier to handle emotionally than when all can read it ...

and, i follow the rule, when someone has not written "please crititque" i will either say nothing to his/her carving or point out only the good things, and every carving has such ... i give now critique only if very specific things are asked, like "please critique on the shape of eyes"...this can be done in thread started by the member, no critiqe corner necessary

[Irish]

Doris ... Great way to help!!!! I have found that when you do point out some specific area of a work where the carver has done a good or excellent job that carver tends to repeat that type of carving in their next work. They do so because they want another 'Good Job' comment. It's a kind and easy way to encourage any carver to do more of what works.

Those same carvers tend not to repeat areas that did not get a comment. They already know there were not comments because that area was not as strong as the other ....

Catching someone do some specifically good is a great method of guiding a new carver (and some of us moldy oldy ones) to improve our work.

Susan

[mark yundt]

Yes Doris,,quite true. There have even been times on the board where so many diverse opinions were given about how something should look,,the carver took the advice and ended up with a carving designed by a committee instead of the carving the artist wished for. Isn't that how a platypus was designed?

The comments ranged from "I do my eyes this way" ( sure,,every face has the same eyes) to "I read so and so does them this way,,that's what you should do" to " I don't do faces but I think you should do this" add nauseum,,,etc...without one thought or question as to what the carvers intentions were and no one bothered to ask. That's carving by proxy...

[Irish]

Ah! Mark! I like platypuses ... I like flamingos too ... I even think the manatee should be our national fish (???)! But then my Dad always said all my taste was in my mouth. See it with a very big grin.

Susan

[doris]

yes, i remember that carving, mark... and it was never finished,...