[whitecree]

I dunno if I have the right place to sound off. Not a question for an author, more a comment on what he wrote.

I recently read Chris Pye's beginners article on gouges (issue #36). I don't normally do more than skim beginner articles, but I am starting to gain an interest in the use of chisels and gouges, particularly now that I "found" Rick-in-Seattle and his excellent selection of good tools. I'm looking forward to the next installment in this series of tutorials. Thanks also, Chris, for clearing up a bit of confusion I'd always felt when looking at the numbering and sweep information about a gouge.

However, I do find myself taking exception to the author's apparent dismissal of knives. "there is no doubt in my mind that carving tools can take the carver to places knives simply can't go." If I may paraphrase - "there is no doubt in my mind that a carver can take knives to places where carving tools are too bulky."

Perhaps this is because I carve primarily with knives, and live among people who can do some amazing work using nothing more than an adze - which at it's heart is nothing more than a bent axe - and a couple of knives. Further, it is far easier to carry a small adze and 2 or 3 knives that - with some skill - can be used to carve literally anything, rather than carrying a toolbox or three of assorted chisels.

Don't get me wrong, I am NOT spurning chisels. I am NOT arguing that chisels - with their ability to be knocked about with a mallet - are inferior. As I've mentioned, I am a recent convert to chisels, but knives should not be dismissed as being a limited tool of the past.

[Ashbys]

Whitecree,

I have to agree with Chris Pye on the chisels, but to understand his comment you need to understand his work. And in that context you can do things with chisels that can not be done with a knife , as in flat edged.

But in saying that , a chisel is nothing more than a knife. They are designed for the same job , they produce the same job, but a chisel is made to be struck by a mallet. The chisel is nothing more than a special knife developed for a job.

I think the real reference is that in America, we have a tendency to reach for a knife before we reach for a chisel.

just my opinion

[wade clark]

Ash,
You're right, chisels and gouges are knives designed to be encouraged with a mallet. There is nothing you can do with a mallet and chisel or gouge that can't be done with a pretty basic but sharp knife. The difference is time. Twenty minutes vs. two days. It's your time, your materials, your tools, your talent. Do it any way you enjoy it. It's probable that none of us will be remembered 1000 years from now. We don't carve to change the Universe, but rather to enjoy our time in this Universe! So, don't worry about carving in the style of the Masters, or the correct way, but rather in your way, or my way. If you want to be the best, good for you! If you want to be the best you can be, good for you! But enjoy yourselves, because that's what really matters, maybe blessing a friend or Grandchild or selling a piece along the way. Enjoy yourselves!
Right now, I'm enjoying myself trying to get the (my) ultimate shop put together. Then I'm hoping to spend some real serious time lost in carving. I LOVE Chris Pye's style, perfectionism, loyalty to tradition...hope to take a course under his instruction some day, humbly. But mostly I hope to enjoy every curl of wood removed with a sharp gouge! In fact, the finished carving may not be as important as the experience of watching that curl come off a piece of butternut! That's a very rich enjoyment, moment!
Wade

[Thor]

I can understand your comment about Chris Pye's attititude towards American's using knives instead of chisles, but I found that other European carvers often feel the same way.
When I had the pleasure of taking a workshop under Peter Benson, from England, he demonstrated what he could achieve with a chisle that I was trying to do with a knife. It was like listening to music from an instrument that was finally in tune for the first time. I was hooked, and will try my best to perfect the use of the chisles for my own satisfaction.
I do, however, still use my knives for stuff that feels more comfortable.
I think reading that opinion is very different from "seeing" it performed.
I hope you get to watch someone dance with a chisle some day. It is quite an experience.
Thor

[BobD]

Right now I'm working on Susan Irish's beginner project trying to do it using just chisels, but I've found that there are parts that are too small to use the chisels for (at least the chisels I have)...so I'm resorting to knife work for part of it.

My next project is the Oak man, and I'm going to try very hard to do it all chisel...I love the feel of the sharp tools...Wade, you had it right!

The chisel/gouge finish it totally different from the knife finish...Chris prides himself on sanding very little...he loves the "tooled" finish, where even flat areas are finished with a low-sweep gouge (he even commissioned Ashley Illes to create a #2 1/2 that is just curved enough to keep the corners from digging in. It is a pleasure to use.

I'm not going out and throwing away my knives by any means..I can't drag my chisels with me everywhere. But I love to use them when I can.

Bob

[Hi_Ho_Sliver]

Well if anyone wants to throw out their knives..just throw my way....I said my way, not "at" me LOL

[whitecree]

Good thing you clarified that, Hi Ho.



I'd like to meet up with a serious pro like Chris myself. I'm not trying to blow him off or say he's wrong, he has his own style and preferences just as I do.

I guess I was just a little bugged at how he views knives, and no matter how many chisels/gouges I get over the next years, I'll never consider my knives as passe or a tool of the past.

Way too early to start looking for the next WCI, but I'm looking forward to reading more from Chris.

[mdallensr]

Consider what Chris Pye carves. If you do much Gibbons style carving, or any decorative carving for architectural details, you will carve a lot of curves, including concave curves and recesses. There are some things you just can't do with a straight knife.

When I started carving, my instructor started all newbies with a knife and four in-the-round objects; a simple whale, a dog, a road-runner and a pig. Each object taught a cut and how to do it safely. After that, I carved some songbirds, doing all of the rough-out with my knife. I then carved a grizzly bear out of a 4" x 6" x 12" hunk of basswood with my knife. It was worth learning how to use my knife, but I would never do that now. Carving the end-grain of that bear's butt was more like erosion that carving. The large carvings I've done since the bear were roughed-out with gouges in probably a tenth the time I spent with my knife.

If you look at Chris Pye's suggestions for the Pfeil carving tools he wants his students to use, you'll see 3 #7's and 3 #9's out of 11 tools; they remove a lot of wood in a hurry, especially for grounding a relief carving. You really wouldn't want to make a new, horizontal plane, 1/2" below the surface of a relief carving with a knife.
I wouldn't be surprised to find Chris Pye does entire carvings without a knife.

[Irish]

Quote - However, I do find myself taking exception to the author's apparent dismissal of knives. "there is no doubt in my mind that carving tools can take the carver to places knives simply can't go." If I may paraphrase - "there is no doubt in my mind that a carver can take knives to places where carving tools are too bulky. - End Quote

Whitecree, I really think this is more an 'author's thing' than a 'carver's thing'. And I think that you are as right or correct as Chris in what you are saying.

As an author I find that I need to be clear, crisp and straight forward with what I write or post. Because my students are not at my table where I can show them what I am doing I have to express my techniques through a very fuzzy/difficult/confusing media called words.

Without realizing it I often get what my Michael calls hard worded ... I get into the "you must", "you ought to", "you should instead" of the "you might", "perhaps you could", "sometimes you will want to try".

I really don't think Chris was putting down knife work or those that primarily use a knife over a set of gouges ... I think that perhaps he was in his authors mode and into the 'teaching statements'.

I don't know how often Mike, BobD - my magazine editor or Gretchen - my book editor will come back and say to me, "Don't you think you might want to word that statement a little softer ....

Sometimes I speak in Absolutes and broad sweeping statements that sound like facts ... Opps! And many times those statments only apply to me and my way of carving.

Now, having said all of that one of my biggest fights with another carver (well known one and a teacher) was because she insists that as a relief carver she never teaches the stop cut. With my style of relief carving I couldn't work without that stop cut. For her style of work, she's right. For my style I'm right ... The whole fight was simply over hard words versus softer words as ... "In my style of carving... Fill in the rest of the statement"!

Susan

[AlArchie]

OK, Susan, now I have to ask.....What does she use in lieu of stopcuts to define edges? Here's another technique perhaps I can pick up!

Al