[RussL.]

Wow!
Thank you for bringing us along on your sharpening day.
I know that I got a lot out of looking over your shoulder and having you tell me what you were doing.

I think it's time for me to take a serious look at the state of my water stones.

Thanks again!

RussL.

[Hi_Ho_Sliver]

Originally Posted by Irish

My Mom is peaking over my shoulder as I proof read this and commented that I just love my Japanese water stones because I love any excuse to 'play in the mud' .... AHHH!

Susan

"mudders" are like that, yes they are!

[Hi_Ho_Sliver]

This should be a sticky on top of "tools" great tutorial for the newbies and reminder for the rest of us if we get lazy and drop a step or two .....you cover about everything, except, can you come over and play in the mud with a couple old sway back stones I have around here ? I am afraid tho that after the leveling process, a couple of them maybe about a 1/4 inch thick ha ha, I think the worst one may have belonged to my grandfather!

[BobD]

The only thing I would add is that to level stones, I use a cinderblock...it is usually flat enough to work (like the concrete Susan mentions), but I can keep it in my shop.

When I'm done sharpening with my water stones, I rub the three I have together to help keep them relatively flat. If you use two, they will wear themselves into a mirror image, but if you add a third one, it keeps them all pretty flat.

Ok...one more thing...since I use my waterstones to sharpen plane irons and bench chisels as well...I don't want to run the risk of cupping them too badly...so I have a little jig set up to hold them on their side...my stones are single-grit stones, so if I sharpen on the sides, and cup it, I have less surface area to flatten.

Bob

[chuckt]

Excellent tutorial Susan. (Hey I just realized that you call yourself by Susan and not Lora which is how you're listed on your books.) Anyway, you seem pretty closely aligned with Chris Pye's sharpening descriptions in the Carving Tools & Eqpt Vol 1 book, except he uses oil stones instead of water stones.

I am just getting equipped for sharpening. I just got a Woodcraft order in with their horizontal wet grinder which is a 1000 grit stone. I am waiting to get my garage cleared out (we are getting a new shed in early Oct.) and set up my "shop" - which will include a sharepning area.

I also picked up the 8in slow speed bench grinder which I may convert to a buffer at some point. It was on special so I just went ahead figuring I can also use it to grind/buff other shop & gardening tools as needed. In addition I picked up a Norton 8" translucent Arkansas stone, and some slip stones.

I was wondering - do you create the inner bevel on gouges that Chris Pye talks about?

Thanks again for the excellent tutorial.
ChuckT

[Irish]

Oh Chuck ... I do believe that I am jealous!

I haven't had a chance to read Chris' book yet, just not enough hours in the day.

When I sharpen I end up with two angles on the face of the tool. One angle is parrallel with the tool's side or metal. This is when I drop the entire face of the chisel onto my coarse (800 - 1000 grit stone). I want this area of the tool sharp, polished, extremely smooth so that during a cut the face of the tool glides through the cutting stroke.

When I move onto my finer grit stones (4000 - 8000) I lift the tool slightly to the stone so that I have a fine gap between the tool face and the stone ... only the very edge of the tool in resting on the stone. As I work this edge it creates a second angle just at the very tip of the tool.

Also as I am working the back side of tool during both stones it also develops a thin fine angle at the tip. I create this double angle on all of my tools ... bench knives, gouges, even my u-gouges. For many of my round gouges I finish the second angle using a slip stone. I'll go dig one out later today and show a few photos.

I would think, I could be very wrong, that Chris' inner bevel and my second angle on the cutting tip are the same thing. Maybe Chris will join in and let us know.

Look at post #9 - image 32 to see the two angles on the face edge. Then go back to post #8 - image 31 to see that a slight thin angle develops on the back side of the chisel.

Susan

[chuckt]

Ok - so you are adding what many refer to as a micro or secondary bevel to the outside cutting edge. Chris actually recommends against doing this for carving gouges stating on page 136 of Vol 1 of his Tools, Materials, and Equipment book:

"This in effect thickens the wedge of metal, as the angle of the secondary bevel must be greater than that of the primary one. The secondary bevel gets longer with each sharpening, which gives much the same effect as increasing the cutting angle of the tool. Eventually the tool will need regrinding."

He continues a little further down:

"It takes the same amount of time and effort to present the bevel flat to the benchstone and produce a continuous, flat bevel from heel to edge at the outset, as it does to produce a secondary bevel. A blade with a flat heel will only need regrinding if, say a corner is broken, not becasue the bevel angle has changed. So secondary bevels cannot be recommended."

This is all referencing the outside bevel of carving gouges. He DOES, however, recommend instead putting a shorter bevel on the INNER surface of the gouge. This in effect throws the cutting edge towards the center of the thickness of the gouges metal and has the following benefits:

1. easing away the wood chip from the blade as it cuts - allowing the cutting edge to move with less effort through the wood.

2. makes it easier to use the gouge in an upside down position when needed

3. "shares the overall bevel angle between the inner and outer bevels, which allows the outer bevel to be longer, lowering the cutting angle and giving greater tool control"

4. "strengthens the cutting edge by placing it more towards the center of the steel where it is buttressed on both sides"


I share this not to be argumentative or to state that you are wrong Susan - as we all know there are LOTS of different perspectives on sharpening. I know of many woodworkers who DO use a secondary bevel on their handplane and bench chisel blades. A bench chisel is what you appeared to be using for your demonstration so a secondary bevel there is entirely appropriate.

His arguments seem to make sense to me though with respect to carving gouges. However, this is Chris Pye's perspective and I offer it in the spirit of exploration of the topic only. I am too new to this to have any firmly held position on this topic.

I'd love to see what you think about this Susan, and anyone else too.

!
ChuckT

[Irish]

Please remember here that I have not read Chris' book nor do I have his photos for reference - just this posting.

It sounds as if Chris is referring to the light thin angle that I show on the back of my chisel and which would naturally fall inside of a round chisel. That slight bevel inside of the u then is Chris' second bevel area.

Round gouges carry their sharpened edge on what I would call the outside of the u or the underside of the chisel. But to get rid of the tin edge you need to work inside of the u just a touch to rock the tin edge back and forth. This creates the second bevel inside of the u. It also would thin the metal cutting edge so that as you look straight onto the edge the cutting line is not at the bottom of tool but in the middle of the edge.

Sounds right to me!

I do use a light secondary bevel on my cutting edge which you refer to in your second paragraph. Before I head to my strops my ftop surface, face surface of my chisel had two distinct bevels. One from the coarse stone when the tool is flat against the stone. The second bevel comes naturally when I lift the tool slightly when I move onto my finer 4000-8000 grit stones. I need the lift to work off the tin edge just as Chris needs to work the inside of the u of a gouge just a touch to work the tin edge.

That secondary bevel is not dramatic as you can see in my photos. When I move to my strops because the leather is a soft conforming material the two bevels get worked into one flowing edge.

Great post Chuck! As I said in the beginning there are a thousand ways to sharpen and you point about the inside edges of u-gouges and v-gouges is a wonderful addition to this discussion.

Susan

[chuckt]

Ahh - Thanks for the clarification Susan. Makes sense to me. Yeah - I was thinking about trying to reproduce his diagram to show what he describes, but figured I'd be taking too much liberty to lift his work out of his book.

Thanks for the reply.

ChuckT

[Keithmc]

Great tutorial! Thanks, Susan for taking the time to post it. I have one question. Is there a tutorial round complete with pictures that shows one how to sharpen gouges and V-parting tools by hand? I seem to do ok with knife blades and flat chisels and etc. The others are a different story at the present.
Thanks again
Keith