Napolean in Progress

[doris]

yes, i am aware of the developments in computergraphics, ... software for face generation is not meant to create a likeness to a given person, but to create from a relatively small set of measurements (about 130) on side and front view a believable face. the results are nice and somewhat similar to the given person from whom the measurements are taken, but not what i would think of good for carving.
of course the software has a different goal, to create automatically a face which looks like it could be a real face. this is used for example, in cgfilms, when you need big crowds of cg-people, it not is designed for creating a 3dface of a given person...

... but now you have clearified your point of view, i see we are not so far away, i just not wanted you carve with an error in knowledge, but you dont as i learned now. thus, all is fine ...

[Irish]

On the discussion about reference photos I so agree that one can never have enough! I have an old 4' long 3' high three drawer file cabinet that is just stuffed full of photos, magazine pictures, Christmas cards ... anything that I think I might one day want for reference.

Garry wrote:
The coat is placed to cover that he is in a physical impossible position. He is on his toes , holding on to the horse with his knees, out of the saddle and turned at the waist. If you think it is possible try it.

Mark wrote:
Since the painting has as you indicate a viewers horizontal line,,does this really have any connection to the 3D carving? It might be considered,,but here too I believe it becomes moot. All those elements that are found in the painting,,that were important for it's completion,,matter less and less in an interpretation of a wood sculpture.

Now ... this is just my view point (pun totally intended)! Garry has started this using the painting as the measurement guide and therefore his work would natural include the over sized head and hands, extra space in the waist, the odd position of the toe in the stirrup .... and the propaganda perspective.

I know nothing about horseback riding but expect that David used the toe position also as a means to push Napoleon higher on the painting. If you were able to support your weight on just the toe in the stirrup won't that raise the entire body several inches, the length of the soul of the foot, higher? Remember that he, the artist, was trying to make a very short man look larger than life .....

If Garry tries to 'correct' those disproportionate areas of the carving to make it more life like he will lose the areas/features that original caught his attention. David did them on purpose and they worked to draw Garry's eye to the painting as the inspiration to carve.

If Garry continues carving the painting under those guidelines when he places the finished carving on a table we will see right down on top of Napoleon's hat. If he places it at eye level we will see right into the hat brim. Remember if we had to look UP at Napoleon in the painting it means that Napoleon will be looking DOWN in the carving.

My answer (see the elfish smirk on her face) I would stay true to my purpose and carve this under all of the original ideas following the painting. Then I display the work on the top shelf of my highest cabinet with a little gallery light mounted on the ceiling in front of the cabinet focused right on his face! That would keep to David's intentions of your looking dramatically up into the Emperor's brightly lite face .....

I don't think Garry needs to change his carving ... I just think he needs to calculate carefully exactly where he can place the carving to carry through on what David did ..... Grin.

Susan

[Irish]

Yes!!! Well caught, Garry! There are indeed several extra inches of height for Napoleon's in how David set the foot in the stirrup!

And your photo shows the problem of displaying this particular carving on a table level. Notice how we look right down onto the top of his hat and how you already have the face plane moving away and back into the carving.

Now imagine the impact that same carving would have when someone looked up into the face because it was displayed from a high advantage point.

Susan

Thinking out loud here ... it would be an interesting to do a second carving where all of the propaganda was removed and little Napoleon was cut down to size ... carving the man instead of the propaganda ego ... Big Grin ... that's the one to place on the table where we can all look down at him ...

[Irish]

Garry, after your email about the saddle info I did a quick google search. I could find no painting or sculpture that actually shows the saddle.

Again, I am not a horse rider, I would expect that David was ... so I am left wondering if, as you suggest, the saddle cloth was to disguise the impossible physical position of Napoleon in the painting. Or ??? Maybe Old Nap used a pillow to get himself high enough in the saddle to see over the horse's head ??

Now I did come across this web page that has sculptured for sale based on this exact painting. I believe that both, there are two, have very ingenious solutions to the horse not being able to support the weight of the sculpture on his back legs.

Talaria Enterprises: Neoclassicism: Miniature Guillotine, Paulina Borgese Reclining, Napoleon Riding by David, Voltaire Bust, Topiary Tapestry, Woman with Urn Tapestry, Declaration of Independence Mousepad, Zephyr and Psyche Aged Iron Grande


I also note that the first one shown on the page has Napoleon's face repositioned into a straight on position instead of the down position of the lower, true to the painting, sculpture.

Susan

[Ashbys]

Susan ,
Thanks for the link. It is interesting how they did the support. But I think what I am doing will be a bit more interesting. Oh did I tell you I had the issue worked out ? The legs will support themselves now. And the change is less drastic then moving the location of the legs.

Actually it modifies the carving in a way that changes a focial point, but no additional structure is needed. I may well add additional strength with dowels but the testing shows it will hold without them.

I did a lot of research to the saddle, there is a lot of information, just the saddle seems to no longer exist, at least not eaisly found. The saddle style is a double seat type. The hussar saddle which it was modified from was the standard of the French cavalry through the 1800"s . Stonewall Jackson had one imported for himself , at the start of the war of northern agression .

The saddle had a velvet seat , and trimmed with gold . The sturrips , had gilded silver and silver eagles shield aboved the sturrpis. It was kept with the Crown jewels , and possible taken durning the Nazi occupation . The last real description of the saddle was in a article about the second burial of Napoleon , when his body was returned to Paris , from St. Helena.

The style of the saddle had extra support, raised the saddle up from the wooden tree, giving extra padding and moving the rider forward on the horse, a forerunner to todays dressage saddle.

Ash

[Ashbys]

just quick update ,

Mostly been removing bulk material , between legs , rump , ect. But a lot of checking and research going on as well . The front foreleg is almost into place , still material to remove but forming well .

Oh I had to clamp it to work on the front legs.

Ash

[Irish]

His body form is coming along very well and, yes. his front leg is standing out nicely. I can really see the backwards "C" curve in his torso now. That horse's rump could not be more correct

My eye does go to the raised hand right now but I think that it is because the area is so undefined, highlighted from the camera flash and in a visual line with the long vertical area of the uncarved mane. I think that when you start to add the details to these areas the hand will drop into the background and no longer be the visual focus as it is at this moment.

And yes I see the slight shift in weight ... Great progress, Garry.

Susan

[Ashbys]

Susan good eye =)

isn’t it funny how the most subtle change can change the weight point. [/font]

For those that have been following, there is a weight issues with the carving. The issue is twofold. Painting is done at a point of action; the horse is not completely up but only in the motion of moving up or coming down. In the link Susan provided the horses have changed stances. The upper horse has been shifted throwing his head, and then the hind legs were replaced from the pose in the painting to the legs being placed together. Then the far leg of the horse was elongated to attach it to the face of what is suppose to me the mountain side. [/font]

The second piece left the front legs in a more natural stance , but adjusted the back legs to equal spacing and interlocked the together by changing the surface of the mountain.

One thing the painting does by the location of the hind legs; it heightens the look on the horse. The action of him being jerked up by an unexpected command is all over the horse's expression. His ears are directed to the rider, his eyes are bulged and rolled towards the rider, he is stressed, and looking for command. But he has responded quickly and has yet to shift the far back leg forward to balance himself.

It shows an action of unquestionable response, to the rider, as if he didn't respond the punishment would be unbearable. Symbolically it is a major statement to the people that would be affected by this man. He is telling them, do what I tell you when I tell you, or pay for your lack of response. To move the legs balanced under the horse, it causes the lack of that instant response, because now the response is not one of terror, but one where OK I did it when I was ready.

I will not bring the legs to this form; it does take away from the effect in my opinion.

[Irish]

Ahhh, Garry! Listening to you type that last posting ... I do believe that Doris, Mark and I have ruined you forever. I don't think you will ever look at an old master painting without seeing it in art interpretation mode.

Grin - Susan

[Ashbys]

I am sure you all have! Thanks !~ It has caused many changes, in understanding , shifting of views, and adjustments to the carving , to the presentation . To give you an idea, what started as a simple carving has changed to a carving that can either be a very powerful , and strong , to one that is a nice carving. But still can be firewood Thumbs Up.

When the carving started , I thought I wanted a challenge of what would be a nice piece, I always admired the work in the painting, and thought a good piece for me .

From learning to square large wood blocks to planning the size of the work from the only thing of correct size in the drawning
then expanding into studing the anatomy of the horse. Researching the saddles of the late 1700's to studing of Napoleon's life and death . Learning to understand of his demanding personality, and his giant ego. The study of a great piece of art, the begining of understanding design concept that went into the orginial piece. Finding the mistakes that should have been part of the planning and were not, then modify the design time and time again to being out more than just a simple horse and rider then trying to develope the piece into a form that can give all of those concepts to a person looking at the finished work.

I have a long way to go and a lot of details that contintue to develope.

But your response to the work , has opened so much more to the painting and the work, I hope i have the ablitites to present that in the finished piece.

Ash