[mark yundt]

Well that's interesting Al...that painting has differences in it from the first painting. Somebody added more to the bridle,,now there are two sets of reins,,plus other things..still even the second set isn't tight in the horses mouth. There are important elements that Lynn has pointed out that are necessary to make this look convincing without it becoming too animated.

[Irish]

I am requesting that our beloved fearless leader make this a Stickie Thread because the info and discussion in this thread is too great to lose as it drops down in the listings ... I hope others will join me.

I do agree that some styles and subjects of carving require a static, dogmatic series of steps to achieve a correct and accurate carving. As a relief carver I know that the progress of an acanthus leaf scroll is far different than the progression of a landscape scene.

I also agree that most carvers work from then general shape into a more defined form into establishing the large /general details of the elements and then into refining the form and adding the final fine details.

Now, in MY opinion .... and knowing Garry's style and process of carving I do not believe that Garry is anywhere near working the fine detailing ...

Perhaps for some it is best to make the car engine first then make the car frame over the engine ... for others this might be reversed ... but for some of us working the entire piece is the most important part of the process.

A work the scope that Garry is creating may well require more than 300 hours by the time he is complete. That time will include a lot on new carving skills, a lot on new thinking about how to approach this work and let's include the changes in any carver's temperament during the carving.

By working a little here and a little there all of that experience becomes spread across the entire carving not concentrated into one area or add at the last moment in just the detailing.

As for the horse's gender .... Well, DUH! It HAS to be a stallion and that is a separate discussion concerning gender assumptions.

Assumptions!!!!

I do believe that all of us are ***-U-ME-ing that Garry is not done the rough out stage because of the uncarved rough wood behind the horse's head .... and, of course, if this is true that Garry is avoiding that area or ignoring all that excess wood the conversation about going to detailing to soon would be more appropriate ....

So ... I am wondering ... Garry do you have some surprise in store for us with that excess background wood that we don't know about ....

?

Susan

(Oh .. for Heaven's sake, Mark, I was not suggesting that he take a hammer and cold chisel to the work!!!!! Just that this carving does not require a light delicate gentle touch especially at this stage of intermediate shaping.)

[mark yundt]

Oh I'm sure you are right,,,it just seemed to me that on the mane,,the horses face,,the riders face,,the boot and stirrup,,horses leg etc, there appeared to be some fine details at this stage that really don't seem to be in the last stages of carving as you indicate. I think this is what I and others were wondering about. Any carver is free to carve however they want to. If someone decides to detail a section then fit the rest of the carving around it,,that is their choice. It's interesting to watch.

I can only guess that knowing your involvement with Gary that he probably does have some other idea in store for the unfinished areas that you are aware of.That too will be interesting to see what happens there.

[Irish]

[quote=mark yundt;158177]
I can only guess that knowing your involvement with Gary quote]

Huge grin here!!!!

Oh, Mark ... by the time this day is done you know that the gossip will be that "Garry and I are involved" way beyond that of a teacher proudly watching one of her students out do her in every way ... grin ... I am just fallin' on the floor on this side of the interent lines.

Grin again ... I have heard of online affairs before but this is the first time that I (a little old round momma ) had it suggested that I was involved in one.

Good Sir! You have left me with a huge smile, a touch of wickedness in my heart and, I think, feeling that there may still be hope for us LORM's in the world.

THANK YOU!

Susan

[doris]

of course, this is a stallion...susan, one dont need to see what the painter did not show ;-)...stallions and mares have so different faces, as women and men, so one can same easily tell which sex a horse has ...

[Ashbys]

Mark ,
Maybe I should explain a bit more and perhaps it will give a bit more understanding. [/font]
You said “on the mane,,the horses face,,the riders face,,the boot and stirrup,,horses leg etc, there appeared to be some fine details at this stage that really don't seem to be in the last stages of carving as you indicate.”

First the mane , Yes there is a lot of detailing , but nothing near what it will be . The detailing that will be added will be inside as well as more to the outer. This is my first work with the wood. I want to know how it is going to react to massive detail in cross grain. The entire mane is cross grain work , I needed to know the limits I could push it to twist and curl without the structure giving out . The inside of the mane is untouched , which I intend to match to the outside. To be able to do this I needed to know where the wall would give way , play room I needed to leave to acquire this. Also I needed to know how much would be needed to be placed between horse and rider to give the depth to the mane without losing structure between the mane and the rider. So by doing this section , I learned about the cuts that I would need to apply to give both structures support.

The horses face , I used the right side of the face to give me the size of the horses head. The eye is the widest point , splitting the horse in half it give the structure line for the off side. It is a bit more detailed , but If there was an issue with the eye there would be material that I could retain from the off side . Had I cut the form into place and set the size there would be no out I would be trapped to accept the eye. Instead I adjusted the eye to the finished form , which allows for the rest of the structure to become more finished , allowing the side of the head to establish center of the head and establish the off side of the face.

The boot , The boot is finished more because of what lies behind it . The sword scabbard. In the position of the scabbard in relationship to the horse it needed to be pressed by the boot. To get that location the form of the boot had to be established. Without it The location of the horses leg would be out of place. And the releasing of the wood under the scabbard to the horses mid section would have been difficult to locate. This is the same for the stirrup, it was put in location to help locate the stirrup strap that rolls under the leg and away from the horse. It is a long way from being finished but now it does retain reference.

The tail , again working with the cross grain only rough flow lines have been added to see if the wood would accept the twisting I wish to give it . It also give me reference to the outer leg and from there to see if I will have to use the leg for support or if it can be maintained on it’s own.

The face is completely without details. Two gouge marks at the eye, the nose for form location , the face is undone just enough to allow me to establish where the hat will set , and to set size to the head which is still to complete. I needed a rough face to locate the hat front correct and to establish the angle of the face .

The horses leg, it is very close to being done , with the following exceptions, the hock is oversized , the ankle is oversized , the inside next to the horse is not finished nor in place . The frog of the hoof was done to set the sizing of the back of the leg. And all this was done to see the structure closer to a finished level to see what strength would be in the legs. Also to learn how the curls of the legs would carve.

I hope this helps, understand what or why some things appear as they one thing but yet the reasoning for them.

And yes Susan , there are many more things to be applied to the parts that are not but there is yet time for …the rest of the story =)

Involved, interesting word, I don’t think Susan is involved any more with me than most of the other carvers here. I do ask a lot of questions, and I am extremely thankful for her help, but she offers that freely to all the carvers here. But she was my first teacher, I used her web site when I started and read all I could , I still do. But her openness to all on this site and the knowledge and perspectives is open to all who seek it. That is a lot of involvement.

Lynn , I assume your referring to the 4 extra teeth that males have. I am not sure in a carving of this size that would make much difference. All horses have 6 forward teeth, male have two additional teeth upper and lower which set slightly apart from the 6 from teeth , but Lynn do you remember at what age they grow? As to them causing a difference to the bit they might. But most bit are usually set with slight pressure to the cheeks pulling the folds of the cheek to show bit pressure. I am not sure of the difference it would make with mares, as I have never had a mare, they are too contrary, in my opinion.

Doris , as for telling the difference between mares and geldings or stallions, I could not tell you if three horses were in a field if they were or were not or both , without seeing the sex. How can you tell from their faces ?

Ash

[AlArchie]

I have absolutely no idea which rendition of this painting Ash is working from.....I simply posted one so that those of us not familiar with the work could get some idea of where this is going, and whence it came. This was simply one of over a half dozen renditions that I have found on the net. Here's another ; same subject, different colors, moods and slight changes in facial expression, position and acrutements.

Here's a link to a gallery with a whole lot of different renditions...I don't know which was the original, but these seem to all be by the same artist.
Allers.com - The World's Largest er and Print Store!

Al

[Ashbys]

Al , one reason I really like it is the different concepts by the same artist. Amazing work , and wonderful color changes.

Thanks for posting the Pic.

Ash

[Ashbys]

I thought that a few photos would help see what I am saying about the details.

You can see what I really have done.

Ash

[Ashbys]

Photos only show what is given you got a perception that was really there, because I showed what I wanted you to see at the time.

Ash