[Thor]

This is really informative to me as I read all of this too.... glad you are fielding this subject as such a great example Doris, and Mark, your insight is universal.
Thor

[mark yundt]

Doris,,I'm so sorry,,for once I am truly at a loss for words.

[mark yundt]

After a day to get over my grief,,and as regrettably as this has turned out,it still is, in an odd sort of way,, a good thing.Unfortunately it came at the expese of a new carvers carving.As I try to preface everything ,, this is only my view and opinion of what can be taken away from this, and it can be a very valuable lesson.As I have said before,, life gives you the test ,, then it's up to you to figure out the lessons involved.I handle mistakes not as a bad thing,but as an important teaching tool.With all the talk lately about Left brain Right brain this is a perfect example of how it works. I'm just sorry I have to use Doris as an example.But here you have someone who said her training is in MATHEMATICS,,,couldn't be a more left brained profession,logic at it's pinnacle.Who ,as a beginning woodcarver has done some work seasoned carvers would have a hard time pulling off,,while using the most basic, and primitive of tools!!!! She is really the poster child of what I have been saying all along,,great carving comes from the heart,,without all the extra baggage everyone else "thinks" is needed.When I looked at her first carving I saw an almost sublime expression,character,,the piece exuded a personality because she carved it from her heart,I saw in it a woman who,though not young and beautiful in the traditional sense,possesed a beauty in knowing ,living, and experiencing the trials and tribulations of the world and still possesed her femininity.This was almost expressed by the braid in her hair,as most women,,regardless of age ,, will always fuss and take pride in their hair.The pose said to me,,this is who I am,, and I'm proud of it. A woman who has confidence in herself is always attractive,, at least to me she is.A carving like that ,, well it's right brained, which is ruled by the heart, and won't make sense to many. Left brainers don't "SEE" these things,the subtle use of line, form and shape.They miss the "suchness" of things.They merely look at things and try to find a logic that matches what they think something should "look like" in their minds,and when it's not found, change it to match whatever they think something should look like,,regardless of what the artist was trying to convey.For a new carver to convey what Doris was able to do left me flabbergasted.At least with what I could see.Whether she did it by accident or design is immaterial.The only thing she indicated was what to do with the symmetry and shoulders,,, a very simple solution,,but she was in doubt,,and became intimidated when changes flooded in to "correct" all aspects of the piece that didn't need correcting in my estimation,,sure, a bit of refinement here and there,,but the piece wasn't near finished, and what was there could very easily be brought into line without changing the character of her piece.I tried to show a radical movement of a carving,, while keeping the original carving and character in place. Advice is great,, we just can't plug in to another carving what we want to see,,, I personally want to see what others do,,, how they handle lines and perspective in a celtic tryptich,the line and flow of leaves etc. This is the base for good carving,,not the details,but that's all most people see details,, and they miss the point I feel entirely,,,left brain.Some might be very good at doing one style of carving,, nothing wrong with finding a niche and working the formula over and over again,,but here is someone branching in many directions,,with the creativity to carve whatever she wants,and I know she will,,this isn't so much a set back,,but a lesson that will allow her to go on and learn to trust that still small voice in her,not the booming ones around her, which is the true carver trying to come out,,the freedom to express itself. Doris,,, You already know all the rules of thumb for drawing and designing faces,,proportions etc.probably better than most here,but trust what you already know and feel inside,,that is where your carving comes from,,,not all that which is known ABOUT,,,but that which is KNOWN

One last addition,,which I have been asked about in P.M's as to why I don't do tutorials,,why I don't really care for them,,or teaching sticks for that matter.I have never owned a single book that "taught" you how to carve,, I only ever had two books related to carving,, and they were on designs.The rest I feel is merely plugging another formula into a carving,,learn how to carve one eye and plug it into another face,,,has anyone actually looked at eyes??? or mouths, or noses??? Do any of them actually look like what you were taught to carve?? If I carve my eye,,my sons' or my wifes, or the eye of the Shroud of Turin,,do they fit that formula??What's the use?? It won't fit with anything I'm trying to do. Here is how you carve a leaf,,,SO WHAT!Wouldn't it be more valueable to learn to see the shape of what it is you're trying to do than just try and plug in something that doesn't fit,,because that's all you "know " how to do , and that's what you expect to see ,and then wonder why carvings don't improve or still look sort of ,, well,,, odd?You really haven't learned to carve anything but an eye or a lip or nose in a stick,,how do you fit it in a face? When you get around to trying a face,,, you're stumped! Especially if you're trying to do a specific face,,any old generic,caricature,spirit is easy,, it doesn't have to really look like anything in particular just a style,,but apply it to something specific and it all falls apart.Because it all depended on just looking,,,,,like something,,,not SEEING.I don't want to know how to just look and know,,,, I want to SEE

[doris]

mark very first i want say you really dont need be sorry. REALLY

second, i want say, i was to hide me a little, and now your post pulls me out again... i wanted hide since i feeled very ashame. i asked all for advise, but i did not say good enough what i wanted, and thats why it was going wrong. its all my fault. and, is my fault, i was overwhelmed by the many techicle advise, all good in itself, it made me loose my track...
i want thank all who participated for good advise, i really appreciate, and i know i have learned a lot, i can apply in future carving. i did miss to make use of the most important advise which lynn and some others said : "its your carving". yes, i lost this out of sight and then i messed the whole thing...
now, sad is this lady had a meaning to me, she will never come alive. i can only carve or draw what has a meaning or feeling to me, and lady lost this due to my mistake. (and mark, with all humble, you are wrong here, yes math is left brained usually, but i am one of those few who do math successfully right brained. and then math is art, like carving...) but good is, i learned a lot, not only about carving (i did overcome for example the fear of redoing a part severly, and i think that is good) but also learned about myself...and to me this is even more valuable. and you all contributed. i am only sad this made grief, for you mark, and made disappointment for all who contributed and hoped to see come out nice carving...
lastly i want assure you, i am not frustrated, i love carving, it seems to me the medium to express my visions, only i really need learn better technic (this is only thing which can frustrate me, if i stll not can see which direction i should NOT cut...or such ...)... my mind is full of ideas, only that lady will now never come out again, but there are millions of new ideas what i want show. and hopefully, soon i do better, and not frustrate you all. thanks for listening ...

[Ashbys]

Doris,

From the post I assume you and mark have been in PM's and through those PM's you have decide to stop work on this piece.

I am not sure I understand why. You wanted a generic female , your in the process of getting that. Yes you have made some changes, not a bad idea , if the choice was yours to do so.

I am also aware that Mark is a professional, and offers a lot to the carvers here on the board.

But it is still YOUR carving. And only Mark's opinion from his perspective of what he sees, or what he thought. The carving is in your hand you can see what none of the rest of us can.

I post this, so that anyone , new , old what ever that reads this thread understands that you are the only one that has an opinion that matters in YOUR carving. The last part of this thread reads very odd as there has been off board conversation which is not shown here, and because of that some of it makes no sense to the rest of the world.

Doris you are working on a small carving , but you are learning, and as such I suggest that you contintue if you can. There are many way to overcome mistakes in a carving , that is part of the learning as well.

Chris Pye, suggest that you always do at least 3 of anything you that you decide to do. I suggest you finish this , then do another , learn from the first , body frame , structure you wish to achieve and gain from what you can by finishing the piece , then look to see what you want to change and do it again.

And Remember , there is no right , no wrong only opinion and only the opinion of the carver carving the piece counts.

Garry

[slivers&dust]

Mark you may not like to do tutorials…but to me, a lot of your postings HAVE been tutorials.
You have given me tons of things to think about when, and how, I carve. I do understand what you are saying.
I’m going to disagree some here though. When I first attempted to use hand tools and carve a face I had absolutely no technique. I nibbled away at the wood trying to shape it like I would have with power tools. In my mind I knew what I wanted to achieve but I could not translate that through the gouge, so I quickly got frustrated. Now I have no doubt I could have power carved the face but the gouges confused me at first.
Just the opposite happened when I followed a book and learned how, when and why to use the gouges. I think the picture I posted in another thread on the two Mt. Man masks shows that difference. Thoughts & rambling re: critiquing (see post #5)

Now I agree that if I was to just carve in that style maybe everything I do would look the same as Mark G or Jeff P’s work, as those pieces I did do, I set out to copy them.
My next goal is to take what I have learned in technique, from the books and tutorials, and apply that to something completely my own.
One of the first questions I wanted to ask when Doris posted her revised pictures was “are you using any reference material” For myself, even though I followed the book and tutorial, I have dozens of reference pictures for both pieces that I used too. In fact I changed the eyes and other areas on the Indian mask to look more like the references that I had. Personally I like realism and detail and like to see how much I can get into a carving…that is what I like.
Anyway I think everyone learns in different ways, for me the book worked. I do hope that I don’t put myself “in the box” and can think or “see” outside the box when it comes to future pieces, especially pieces that start to reflect myself and what I see and my developing style.
I short, I needed someone to turn on the light switch for me, kind of like the stand

Doris, Ashbys is right don't give up on YOUR piece, keep going and see who is in there.

[mark yundt]

Actually as Doris's post reads, she did not want a generic face,, she started with a goal im mind and in her words found it,it only turned into a generic face.And whether any one realizes it or not,,these posts are again a reconfirmation of my position of who is doing the carving and how the process can happen.I know for many people, books, tutorials,lessons etc. can be very valuable as a kick start to getting over the fear of carving and trying something new.Even though I do not care for them , I have suggested to BobD several variations based on a tutorial format.And again,,though I am not fond of most styles of teaching,,,study sticks ,,,books on how to carve whatever,, they too serve their purpose only in a limited realm. Where I have seen many problems arise first hand is many do not know when to let them go , continue to use them as a crutch,,or,, so and so said this is how you do this ,,,but this is what the teaching stick shows,,you need more tools than what I have,,,you should do this so many times,,MAN,, I have the hardest time trying to get these people to see things otherwise,,their area of knowledge is limited to just these things and they refuse to let them go .There is such an ingrained pattern established that at times I wish I could sweep the ideas out of their minds and start fresh.Dependence on such a limited amount of knowledge is crippling.Ask them to carve a maple leaf instead of an oak and their looking for a book to show them how.I've met people who have been taking lessons for years to no avail.They know all "about" carving except to carve in itself, making it into some mystery...the very tools they are trying to use to unravel the "mystery" only continues to reinforce the problems they are trying to overcome!! I said I don't do a typical tutorial, yet Tony said he learned a "ton" of info,,,huh,, go figure.I said what tools I used on the greenman, but never showed you what tool to use where.Never showed the guy how to do the guitar,,told him what to get,, and this is what it'll do and look like ,, a straight forward solution to a simple question,,and off he went happy as a lark..if he runs into problems,then I'll handle that too.Imagination and inspiration cannot be taken out of the equation,,,that is what teaches us.Why are children so easy to teach ,,BECAUSE THEIR HEADS ARENT FILLED WITH THE SAME JUNK OURS ARE THAT GET IN THE WAY OF LEARNING AND SEEING. I have talked to others who feel the same way about the traditional ways of teaching carving,they dont' use em,, never have and you should see what they can do.
Are my thoughts,ideas,methods techniques,views ,opinions and results about this different from everyone elses,,, I tend to think so in some cases,but to some since they don't fit in with what they know It'll remain questionable at best.The things that continue to drive me are the variety of posts I read that in essence say,, how do you sell something,,how does this carving look,,, what did I do wrong,,where do ideas come from,,how do you design something,,,how do you carve eyes,noses,mouths,,leaves,,,water,,,.Gee,,,with all the books,teachers,classes,tutorials,teaching sticks available there still seems to be something that is still lacking that people, regardless of the info available can't seem to find,or figure out,,HMMMMM.

[mark yundt]

Tony,,just went out to the shop,and it dawned on me,,,YOU ARE ANOTHER PERFECET EXAMPLE of what I'm talking about.Think back to when you were doing your carving bench,,you were stuck,you were trying to go in one direction,there were no books on what you were building,,you weren't following a formula,, you weren't merely copying what someone else did,,there were no patterns or kit or roughout for what you did was there?Yet,, what happened when the light went on? Within a day or two you cranked that thing out ,,, didn't you ?? and how long were you stuck or just kicking around the idea...what got you going?What books,teachers,story sticks,,other benches got it done for you????? I only poked you out of your rut,,didn't show you anything,,but just enough to spark you.And you ended up with something uniquely your own,,that somehow YOU FIGURED OUT.Once you saw it ,, you couldn't help but do it,,, and pretty easily I might add. I can still remember your inspiration,enthusiasm and excitement .Your own experience of what I am talking about doesn't so much validate what you said,,,but confirms my point exactly.Couldn't have planned a better example.

[mark yundt]

Maybe my mind wanders too much when I'm out in my shop carving,,but kept thinking of something rather curious I read here as advice to follow or do. At first read I thought wow that sounds like something,,but then thought ,,I can't imagine anyone doing that.If I carved 3 of anything as I believe Ashbys does I would only have a third of the pieces I have carved actually done,,with duplicates of each laying around.I personally get bored out of my mind doing the same thing over and over (egg and dart) but have always made it a point to never do the same thing twice,,except of course where two brackets for example were needed. Do you Ashby, actually do 3 of every carving you have done as you suggest others to do? If so , I think we would really be interested in seeing the progression of the pieces you have done for us to see just how carvings change and evolve as a process like you recomend is followed.All I know is I am glad I didn't read that early on in my carving career,,I'd be broke, bored and out of work.( and finding another hobby LOL) Looking forward to your pics.

[Ashbys]

No Mark ,
I do not carve 3 of everything I do. To be honest it would be impossible for me to do so. If I am hired to do a tree carving there is only one tree, there is no room for mistakes.
So I plan carefully for doing a job like that.

Most that have been here have seen progression in my wood carvings they are posted, and if you wish to see them they are here. When I started learing faces , I did not do 3 , I did staffs full of them learning , expressions, structure and form. The Santa's I did at Christmas show the improvement that comes from doing more than one of the same item.

Progression and learning is not all about the finish. Much of it is about learing the cut. Knowledge that comes from doing, over and over. Learning the tools , how to move them , control them , to have them give you what you want. This is all part of what a learner needs , and that comes from using the tools. In other words Practice.

The next is planning, knowing what you want and planning to achieve that end. Doing more than one teaches planning and tools , cuts and feel , gives knowledge and understanding. Yes I think I understand why Chris Pye's students are taught the way they are. Because it makes sense.