[Alice in Wonderland]

Hello Doris
I think you deserve a lot of credit to undertake such a project, I am also attemted to do this and get stuck too because I m always ahead of myself, is this a German trend??? I was born in Berlin so I can relate to this . My husband always tells me " get your base right" because I always go to him at the end to have him straighten things out:-)
Alice

[Ron Davidson]

Normally I don't have anyone here to describe pictures to me. I rely on the people here on the forum to try and tell me about their projects. Believe it or not that even helps them see their own projects better sometimes. I didn't realize it was that small. I also use a small plastic stylis to feel detail when to small for even for me. It does take sometime to develope the sense of touch but is does help. Keep us posted thanks
Ron

[slivers&dust]

Originally Posted by Ron Davidson

I rely on the people here on the forum to try and tell me about their projects. Believe it or not that even helps them see their own projects better sometimes. Ron

Funny you would say that Ron. I was just saying something similar in another thread I started about critiquing others work and how it has helped me to see my own carving better and push nyself for better results.

here's the link

Thoughts & rambling re: critiquing

Doris, I also posted some pic's of the project I'm working on where the nose was giving me trouble and how I made the changes.

[doris]

bobd - thanks for that tip. i tried some, and yes is better than shifting chisel, but it sure needs a lot of practise to make clean v-cuts.

deborah, thanks ! always good to get more encouragement. i must admit, i got a little frightend to touch lady now. but i will, and let you all know how she will turn out ...

hi alice :-) ... i was once in berlin, oh so many years ago. its a wonderful town... i dont know if that is typical german, i rather would think not, but ... ;-) ... nice forums name you got, btw ...

hi ron ... i cant feel anything with stylus, but fingers are good. actually i started yesterday a relief type leaf, and use now my finger to feel if the bottom is flat, or makes bumps. your tip is really good for me, thanks again for that... and, i will try describe in future my fotos, so you can see them too, so to say...

tomorrow i will make a little travel, and get me (at least) 2 new chisels :-). and, i have thought how work lady now. you gave all so many good advise, i needed make clear to me how to begin. and i think, best will be i start to make the nose right. cut deeper there, and develop after that facial structure like lynn suggested... this way i will have a chance to get face right. if it works, i will be even more eager to get body right too... ok, so you see, still not started the re-work, but very soon will do so. please stay tuned...

[doris]

i finally did gather all courage and did severe recuts on her face. the 2 fotos show closeups of her face in front and side view. looks much softer in appearance now, i think. the sideview foto shows nicely her expression now, which is sort of dreamy. somehow she looks older from front view than from side view...
i did recut the nose, made it longer in side view, then tried to make the cheekbones, for that i needed pull in jaw too. i did cut a little under her chin to make more throat line, but maybe this was not enough ? and after that pushed the whole mouth area more to back and shaped it more like a horseshoe from bottom view. then recut mouth. (oh, that went much easier this time, as my 2 new tools are so light in hand, and i bought just for such kind of work :-) ... i have not yet touched the eyes again. my question : what do you think of her now ? and, what with the eyes ? are they ok there, or need be reworked too ? (i dont know if i would dare that, i made some severly deep cuts in that area, and i dont know if those would make impossible big changes now, but would like know what you think, maybe i would do then if necessary)..

[Irishman]

Doris, your female face is really coming along. You asked for feedback to help out with some of your sticky spots so here's my little bit of wisdom. I'm really just relaying what my instructor used to say to me...and I'm still trying to get it right.
I don't have a computer program to illustrate this properly but here is my attempt using the standard paint program on most computers - see picture.
You asked about the lips: the lower liptends to tuck under the upper lip in the corners. This makes the lower lip fuller looking...and you know how I like big lips . To help give your upper lip that feminine look, use your gouge and make a "gouge: from the upper lip...turn up at a steep angle..to under the nose.
As for the eyes, my attempt on your picture does not illustrate this well, you will want to shave small amounts of wood from the inside of the eye gradually wrapping the fullness of the upper part of the eye into the brow. Apparently, the brow structure in the female face is very sutle. The nose tends to be more petite in females and the nostrils don't flare like the males. In the picture, I tried to show how I was tought to gently shave the wood away to give the shape to the nostril and front of the nose.
Another tip my instructor mentioned is that females tend to have a little turn down in the corner of the eye close to the nose. My painted female mask I posted in the gallery some time ago has an exaggeration of what I am talking about.
Others on this site can probably discribe this better. As someone said to me one time. "The carving is your carving so go with what works for you....we all have our own likes and dislikes". Good advise. In otherwords, your carving is looking great. Keep us posted on the progress

[Hi_Ho_Sliver]

I noticed the top of the eye is cut in farther than the bottom of the eye...from the side you can see the bottom of the eyeball sticks out further, I would reduce that some and put a gouge cut under the eyes to show the fold thats under the eye, not sure you need more than one unless you want her to be really matronly lol.....good job, keeps looking better!

[mark yundt]

I'm showing these pictures only to demonstrate two points.There is usually more wood in a piece than most people realize is there, and two ,not to go after details too early in case changes have to be made.The extra wood that has to be taken off any given carving,,even if it's close to being done,is usually minimal,, and would only make any given carving just slightly smaller than what you start with.And two,, if details arent gone after too soon,,well then all the wood is still there for you to play with.Here I had the face basically done.I did this while the piece was laying down and didn't see that the face was too far down,(chin on his chest) until I mounted him upright as he would finally be seen.OOPS! His face had to go up a couple of inches!His forehead in alomst an inch!His hair back a few inches.In the first picture you might be able to see some dark pencil lines above his eyebrows,,,,that's where his eyes should be,,the dark line across the bridge of his nose,,,that's where his nose should end,,this is a fairly radical movement of the face.Just for a photo opportunity,,I only carved half his face at a time,,a bit harder to do but thought it would be fun to see.The second shot shows on his right (our left)side where his face should end up,,his left(our right) side shows where his face was,,that blob hanging there is his old eye,about even with the middle of his new nose,looks like some monster with his eye dangling like that! and the final shot how his face ended up.Remember,, a well done rough out is only that,,rough,,but without much effort you should be able to see where all the details will go to finish the piece.That's why some of Michelangelos greatest pieces were his last , and only roughed out,works. He didnt' even bother finishing them 'cause he saw just what they'd look like,,we are the ones who want to see details thinking it will help the piece become finished,,but too soon it only hurts, and limits the amount of wood you have to play with.

[mark yundt]

I'm familiar with carving ,,but now I'm totally confused,,I can't imagine how you feel Doris!I can give you advice on how to carve a flower,,the petals should be long and pointed, tapered like spears,,about 20-30 radiating out from a center cluster of stamens,and a daisy...OH,,I didn't know you were trying to do a Rose.Your initial carving was headed in one direction,,and now you have a totally new one.Shortly you'll have a design done by committee,,just like the Platypus,,you know,,a ducks bill,webbed feet , a beavers tail. Everyone has an opinion of course,,from caricatures eyes,to smaller ones, to fuller lips smaller ones pointed noses,,less nostrils,,fuller chest,,collar bones,,necks,,,on and on,there are as many shapes of lips,eyes and noses as there are people!!!.After re-reading the posts at no time was it ever really established as to what type of woman you were trying to do.Personally ,I find it impossible to give advice if I dont' know what you 're looking for.If it's just a generic one, fine,, that's what you 'll end up with,,any face as long as it kinda looks female?Young women look entirely different from old ones,,skinny vs chubby,,bones show and then they don't,necks appear on some and others just look fuller.I personally find it hard to give advise unless I have some frame of reference as to the IDEA YOU HAD IN YOUR MIND WHEN YOU STARTED.Do you have a reference photo as to the type of woman you are trying to do? If not, then you are only making the process harder than it has to be. Sure,, carvings can be reworked DRAMATICALLY,,as I have just posted,,,the DIFFERENCE though is I had a starting point as to what the face was I was going for,,re-carved the entire face, to end up with the same looking face.There is a world of difference here.Your first carving had a certain character that I could see,that with a bit of refinement would have been terrific.Though maybe what I saw wasn't what you had in mind...so I couldn't comment,,, I had to see where you were going first, and what your objective was.You now have a totally different piece,,and now I'm clueless.It reminds me of the guys who were blindfolded and asked to examine an elephant,,one feeling it's leg said it was a tree,,one holding it's tail said it must be a sort of monkey, one holding it's trunk said it must be snakelike,,,you get my point.I think it would be necessary to have some indication (photo,sketch,,vivid description) of what you're looking for , for us as well as MOST IMPORTANTLY for yourself.The more securely you have that image or feeling in your head,,the better and easier the carving will be,otherwise you'll keep changing this carving repeatedly to the whims of every comment made, and keep chasing an illusion that has no significance to you,, as it's happening already.You have lost sight of the basics,,the form,,structure of that which you are trying to do and are chasing details. I'd be willing to bet the Apostle you did didn't give you as many problems did it? And there you had all the basics,, and probably had some sort of reference.I hope this isn't read in a spirit of harshness, but one of compassion.I would like to give you some advice,, but at this point this is all I can give,,,not about the CARVING,,but about YOUR carving.

[doris]

patrick, wow thanks. that drawing you made is really helpful...i looked so many at
the shape of nose, i did not realise how wide it is... i will look more closely, thanks
a lot for effort in helping me

mark, that is scary, and very instructive ! i once read michelangelo had turned
moses head by 30 degree, after he was almost finished with him, since he did not
like what moses had to look at. the reason for turning his head might be invented
afterwards, but he did turn the head as one can see from the one side where he
was running a little short of marble, the locks are missing the volume they have on
the other side for example...well long saying, i always wondered how michelangelo
did that. now your fotos do show me how it is possible ...wow, really thanks..and
that means, i can really try more on my lady, if i mess the eyes, i can still push
everything a little back, the hair is so thick i still have lots of space i can move
everything back without loosing proportions.

mark, i just open and read your emotionful post... and you hit a point...yes, lady is
getting better, but she is no more what i wanted her.... no, its not the comments i
asked for, its more that i lost track because i tried too much make her technicle
well. ah, i cant explain, somehow i tried to make anatomical right, and loosing out
of sight the things important to me well, no i think this is not
understandable...lets try again...for example, after i had read all good advise, and
thought about it, and looked my carving more closely, i saw my whole mouth area
was way too flat. so i redid that, and that mostly changed her so dramatically.
now her moutharea is more like in a real woman but she lost my view... well, yes
apostle was way easier. my reference was one apostle of a church carving of
riemenschneider, to make precise, i had picked actually 2 of the apostle, and
combined them in one how i thought he should look. i had only one odd view of the
two on a foto, but that was what i needed. and i am satisfied with how he came
out, though he has no good cheekbones either as i checked just today... the lady,
well, i dont want make the "pretty and young" stereotype face of woman, though
this can be beautiful, i more was heading to show experience...yes, she is not so
young, oh well... ok, i took myself as reference, i am not heading for likelyness,
but wanted show a something from me in a sense. it was in the first version i
showed, ow crude she was. i dont know how i can describe this, but i know what i
want...and lady is now diverging strongly from that... actually before i have read
your post, i thought i will finsih lady in sme sense, to learn about carve female
face, and then try again, in larger. the small size makes me lots of problems .... the
advise is good, but it is so difficult to keep track of own ideas then. i am still
beginer, often i not know how do elementary things. i was trying to just "grab"
the information i needed to make technicle adjustments, and ignore "taste"
advise, like i feeled most would like to see her younger, lots of beauty. but that is
hardest part.

now, i am very grateful for all many advise i got, i do not want offend anyone who
has given so great advise, iwould not have said so, but it was brought up, it is
really difficult, to deal with advise. it influences alot...like, when a good friend of
mine looks my carving in progress, even if he doesnot say anything, the way he
looks at it, does say all. and makes me change decisions...maybe one should better
work alone. but how can one learn then ? i am still struggling with technicle stuff.
only very recently i found that when i want make a change in slope in a surface, it
goes much easier when i carve a groove where the line of change is, and then work
both sides separately to achieve the shape and slope i want there approximating
the groove as i go, until it finally vanishes, and i am left with the
wanted change in the surface...

no, mark, your post not read harsh, you just spoke out what i was feeling. dont worry