[carvendive]

Hi All, here is what I'm currently working on (to quote someone else…) another fireplace mantelpiece.
This is my 4th carving. The first was a set of newel posts and the second and third were fireplaces. This is a hobby that's gone into obsession for me

I don't know anyone else that carves so I have no one to help critique my work so I would appreciate all the constructive criticism you can give. The only thing that I can learn from is other carvings and you so let fire.

All my pieces in this set of photos are Mahogany. The bundled reed column needs to be trimmed to length and that's why the holes are still showing. So far I've completed about 20' of E&D molding using 1" radius stock, the bundled reed columns, the capital, the capital to column piece (wouldn't know what to call it but I wanted a "detailed" piece that ran behind the capital scrolls) and the. I'm currently carving the base which will end up being the vase with the leafing overlay.

One potential design issue is the leafing on the vase. I'm incorporating two design standards. The center leaf that will run to the top is a typical center on leaf with two coves, a slight bead or convex curved surface along the outside edges of the leaf with the "roll over" top. Then the bottom branch of the leaf is going to be a "C" style scroll with the concave inside / convex outside with the knob at the end. The difference (at least in my mind) is the leafing in-between. It will be more of a natural leafing without the deep cuts of the main center leaf or the "C" scroll. I haven't noticed it used together before in any of the pieces I've seen but hope it will work visually. (I use to first build in clay but the time is just too long to go that route on this piece)

One thing I'd like to know is the "chisel finish". Obviously there is some clean up needed on the vase but the capital pieces would be a good example of where I usually quit. Is this finish OK or should I refine my cut?

[doris]

i am no expert, but i want say i like your carvings. to me, the capitals look nice, and they are certainly placed high, so i cant see a reason for a smoother finish. the vase, i would try carve smoother... with your desigh question, if this carving is for yourself, i mean your own home, i would simply do what you like. and dont care if it is standard or not... you do really nice work on 4th carving only... i still have not so secure cuts i think... congratulation

[mark yundt]

It's your call,,,you can stop at any level you choose. If you like this finish and amount of detail then that's it. Go on to the next piece.
But like anything else you can push things farther and farther. How much time do you feel comfortable putting into it? And ,,like anything else,,getting to the point where something is recognizable goes quickly,,but to get it to the point where it starts to become quite refined and elegant takes a disproportional amount of time and effort.

[takeaction]

I'm new to carving and have no idea about mantle pieces, or the terms you used for the pieces... I obviously know what the vase is though.

Personally and honestly... I would be honored to have that in my home the way it sits RIGHT NOW... Wife says the same thing. nice job.

[carvendive]

Thank you all for replying to my thread and providing input. I know I can sell it but at this point that's not my immediate objective.

I've viewed both of you sites (Mark and Doris) and your work is impressive (to say the least).

This piece is basically a study piece. My first two were installed in my house and now I've run out of faceless fireplaces.
My goal with this piece is to refine my carved finish and design. I purposely didn't post those photos for comparison because even I can see the improvements.

I'm using classical pieces because they are easy to copy and make great study forms. Plus when completed, I can sell them and get more wood and chisels.

How much time? - well, this is a study piece so my time is unlimited as long as I'm learning and can see progress. And YES, my goal is to be able to create forms that are refined and elegant.
PLEASE do not worry about upsetting me. I ASKED FOR CRITICISM. And from my view, each comment gives me a diamond in the rough to work on.

So, as an example of what I'm asking for, I'll do a quick self critique. Let me know if you see other areas I should work on or disagree with my self critique.

(ALSO, if you care to provide any detail photos of samples of what you're explaining, please feel free to add them to this thread or point me to.)

1. Spiral forms are not smooth and regular. Both the exterior "shape" and the interior concave (cove) cut appear to be jagged.
2. Need to work on top of crown section which is supposed to resemble oge molding - not much but needs to have smoother, flowing form.
3. Chip outs are visible at dome of the cross grain areas. (Don't know the answer - do you fill and re-carve?)
4. Waterleaf /bead piece - beads look good but transition area from flat background under beads to waterleaf has a sharp edge that should be removed.
5. Waste under waterleaf needs to be better defined. Looks like it has a center ridge (forming a diamond or pineapple cut or pattern) define it better.
6. Shave cut more with gouges to remove some faceting and better define the design lines.
7. Maybe even something like That capital would never have been used with that style column.

[mark yundt]

Well again,,,I mean no disrespect as to your work and I will only comment on your observations. One book I think you may like to have at this point is the American Vignola. It covers all the salient points of doing Doric,Ionic and Corinthian capitals. Now of course there are many variations of them that are completely up to you do decide and carve. How you choose to do them is completely up to you. But since many of the details of this type of capital have already been solved it may help to use the reference as a basis to take off from.There are certain angles and proportions that tend to make them much more esthetically pleasing. The angle from the base to the outside of the top plate. The relationship of the width of the cap to the column itself. The width of the column to the height of the column itself. None of this really matters much if you're just carving to make something neat,,,but as I said ,,esthetically it does make a difference. That's why some designs last for centuries.
As far as your # 1,,yes,,,the outside form is fine,,,I tend to think the inside form should be more uniform and consistent in it's spiral inwards. Volutes are tricky to draw let alone carve. There are several ways to draw them. One ,,from a pentagon form. and Two,,from a square ..both using a compass with concentric arcs. Once you see it,,they are fun to do. Of course you can just draw them free hand which is the way I tend to do them most often.A pentagon will tend to give you the most concentric circles with an even progression and the square will give you a quicker twist to the center with fewer circles. I tend to like using the square and intersecting axis as a start.It's more dramatic and interesting to look at.

# 2,,chip outs at cross grained areas...well,,,that's just a matter of carving and chisel work. It can be tough,,but that's what makes it hand carved. It can certainly be done,,,just takes time ,care,,and sharp chisels. Good stop cuts help tremendously to prevent tear outs..and sharp chisels allow you to shear into those cuts cleanly. With grain,,against grain,,,across grain,,,that's what separates levels of carving.Oak,,bass,,whatever...that's what you need to accomplish.
#3 ...see above
#4,,beads look fine as you said,,,can't see much to do here. AS far as the leaves above them,,maybe a bit more relief to them or if nothing else a bit more depth and movement to them themselves. Make them a bit more defined giving them more life.You can do this by making a center ridge and coving the outer leaf sections. Try for a less flat look.
And maybe it's just me and what I look for,,but the center leaf could use more life as well. These ,which are an Acanthus leaf,,look best with more movement to them as well. What I mean by this is the center top of the leaf should be a bit more pronounced showing more of an overlay ,,,or curl to the top of the leaf where it should protrude over the center of the design,,,and the leaves of the design might use a bit more depth and movement to them as well.
Again,,,these are only things I like to see in pieces like this. It in no way means thats how it should be done. I personally like to see a certain tightness of design,,which flows into a cohesive unit displaying a unique flair of design and purpose. Even in a simple design,,keeping it in perspective and giving it the depth and drama that can be had as well as following some basic guidelines can impart a certain understated elegance to the piece which cannot be found elsewhere.

Sort of like the designs for a simple rectangle. If given to a group of people,,they will almost universally pick out ones they like based on the principles of the ratio of 1.6 to 1. Why? ,,,,it has a universal look of balance and harmony to it that most people see regardless of their understanding of the dynamics of what they are looking at.
They don't know it,,,they just see it ,,and like it better.
I do though really like the transition of the photo #3,,,that is really very well done. I like the balance of the egg and dart,,though unique in it's design and how it flows into the flat where it then transitions into the leaf type design.....Really nice transition and handling of form.


And in the case of carving,,,it may not be better carved,,,it just appears more esthetically pleasing to see. You may not see it initially ,,,but if given the chance to compare one to the other,,,one wins hands down.
That's what I personally like to see.
Please don't take this as a criticism,,,you asked for some input and this is only my interpretation of capitals and how they are usually constructed. This doesn't mean that's the only way,,it's just one way of considering them. Sort of like cars for example. Sure ,,they all have wheels,,fenders ,,roofs etc. ,,,but what makes one so much more enjoyable to look at than another which has the same features.
It's how they are arranged and balanced that makes the difference to me.

[carvendive]

Thank you Mark
And DO NOT WORRY, absolutely NO disrespect was taken! This is exactly what I was looking for. Without having a journey or master level to work with (as I did in cabinetmaking) I only have books, the internet and my own mistakes to learn from. And if I'm going to do something I'd rather that I do it well. After all, if I'm going to invest in ~100 chisels and good wood, why not turn it into something worthy of cutting down that who knows how old tree?

I use the halving square method for creating the volutes but never heard of the other method. I am amassing a bit of a woodworking library and the carving section is growing - and no I see another book in my future. One of the books that I have discusses the different capital designs, and the importance of the golden or perfect rectangle but does not go into the relationships of proportion between the different pieces.

Almost all of the books which discuss technique focus on the initial shape and form, but none of them seem to address what I'm calling the "finished" level. I've even purchased several VHS tapes to see if maybe they would cover it there but the ones I have stop once the piece is at a "recognizable" state.
I'm sure it most likely has something to do with sale-ability of the book from the aspect of it becoming a disproportional amount of time and effort.

I know exactly what you mean. I've had another carving critiqued by a very well known master carver who suggested that I reduce the relief. (See photos below.) And while I know that the relief was a little too pronounced I probably focused on it in the capital, and capital to column transition, leafing. Not to say that you are correct and he is wrong - but "I" will eventually decide what is appealing to me once I have enough quantifable reasons to make the decision. At this point I'm learning. That means that I have to rely on books and historical pieces which have been perfected over time for valid reasons. Once I get a understanding of it, hopefully that experience will be a good foundation on which I can (for myself) decide what is good design and what is not. Personally, I like a little more depth (but then I also love the curves and style of the Triumph TR3).

Thank you, Dave.

[mark yundt]

You're doing just fine. I really like what I see.
I've included three ways of drawing the volutes using a straight line method which gives and almost oblated looking spiral which I do like to use since it doesn't look so mechanical as turns out. The second two are done using the square method,,using an eighth inch square and a quarter inch square. You can see how just that slight difference in square starting points changes the look of the spiral.and the last is using the pentagon. This method causes the volute to spiral out very quickly.

In the second post I'm showing uses of these different styles of drawing which ended up in a variety of carvings.

[mark yundt]

Here you can see the uses in a very large capital,,scrolls,,a bracket and a coffee table which is really just an elongated capital. The client liked Architecture so I carved this piece out of Mahogany. It may be a bit dark to see,,but it has egg and dart along the bottom,,large volutes which spiral in and acanthus leaves under the sweep of the volute.

[carvendive]

Mark,
Thank you for taking time from your busy day and for selecting photos that show the level of finish that I've been asking for.

This IS the level of finish that I'd like to work towards. My current methods would make doing the shell or gadroon inside the volute (in the large capital) without visible stop cuts all but impossible. But it does give me ideas about stop cuts. I've been laying them in too deeply and should be laying them in just enough to carve the form. Then doing a final stop cut and clean up cut so as to get cleaner edges. I also like the inner spiral - where the cove cut meets the flat (in the volute) a nice smooth, flowing line. I've been doing mine increasing the width of the cut as I go deeper into the wood, with the direction of cut being the same as the spiral. This method meant that I was always fighting grain and having to eyeball the line while carving the sweep. I'll try making the cut from the inner sweep into the center - this would insure that the cut is always going from shallow to deep (which will eliminate any tear) plus, it will insure a sweep that matches the sweep of the inner spiral line. I see your E&D with less relief than I use and florals with more. Some faceting but very subdued. This gives me a lot to examine and a lot to work on - which is great!

It will be interesting to see how this translates into my current carving.

Thanks again for your help and ideas!