[RussL.]

Hey, Mark, Oh Beardless Ungray One! :-)

You wanna put pictures of new projects under a New Thread?
I almost let those capitals slip by! :-)
They are great!

I have no idea what a duplicator, that would rough these out for you, looks like.
Can you show it when you get a chance?

As always, thanks again for taking the time to post your work.

Russ

[mark yundt]

Oh,,Carvendive,,,you are the person I am talking to!!! You are the reason I post!!!

It's not for the people who have it all figured out,,,heck ,,,I don't have it all figured out and this is what I do.

It simply thrills me that you are "getting " what this is about.You may have just joined the site,,,but you understand instinctively what I have been saying for the past year or so. Your first hand experience has been so great.
Playing with clay,,going for more than the typical starters stuff,,making something that means something. AND YOU MADE IT HAPPEN!!!!! Oh man that is so great! You simply refused to take no for an answer,,or ,,you can't do that,,or ,,that's beyond your abilities,,you didn't fall for any of the old stand by's. THAT'S GREAT!. Isn't it just amazing what you can do if you just try?
Your third piece is more involved than anything else..that's great.You opened yourself and what happened,,,more ideas and designs came up out of nowhere. And you went for it.

Man,,,you hit this one out of the ballpark. I'm a happy guy!

I don't even care what your carvings look like...that's not what's important here. What has made you successful is your mindset. THAT will take you farther,,and faster to wherever you wish to go than anything else you may come up with. Stay on this path ,,,and the future is yours to have.

[mark yundt]

Hey Russ! The duplicator is a fairly simple machine. This one is on a small scale. The basic premise is you have a master you wish to copy,,,and you follow it with a stylus and at the same time a router with the same size cutter as your stylus is carving a block of wood for you to the general size and outline. It gives you a roughout to start with from your master pattern. The thing is ,,as you get progressively smaller bits in the router and you use a matching smaller sylus you can get some pretty good detail. It'll give you the major points of reference to go by.
This duplicator only does one at a time.. I've seen them that'll do 10-12 pieces at a time. That many cutterheads wailing away at 10-12 pieces of wood making duplicates as the operator follows the master pattern. This is how places like Enkebol stay in business and can make so many pieces at a time.
Now in the pictures,,I'm only using some blocks of wood to represent where the "carving" will take place. On the right side you can see the pattern I carved for the stylus to follow. As long as the block of wood is the same size or slightly larger than my original the router will copy every move I make based on the master,,,or whatever move I make as I guide the cutter along.
Now this duplicator will only make straight copies,,,not mirror images. I did design and build a duplicator that can make a mirror image of whatever design I come up with. Now I can make left and right images of any design using only the left or right master. Neat huh?
It's a simple concept that was in use when the Greeks built the Parthenon thousands of years ago. They used a triangulated base that moved from master to copy,,had an indexing point,,and since they didn't have power they simply chiseled away the stock to make a copy based on the position and depth of the indexing point.

I worked on an indexing system to make a duplicate of a figurehead over 10 ft tall . 4 ft wide,,and 4 ft deep. It was based on two parallel poles that ran from floor to ceiling ( 15 ft tall) that kept the mechanism we built parallel to the subject,,and had independent pointers that would follow the original and show you where on the copy exactly where,,how deep and every other point you wish to consider it could find. THAT ,,was a really slick invention. I also designed for that same job a platform that was 8 X 10 ft...lifted from a single point along one edge,,would remain stable wherever you stood on it,,and raise you from ground level to max height and never wobble. 2-3-4 guys could stand anywhere on it,,and again,,it was only supported at one point along one edge,,and it' wouldn't sag or tilt. Matter of fact,,the more weight you put on one corner or side,,,the more stable it became. That was a fun one to figure out.

[carvendive]

As you can see, I'm new to this site. Not sure if this is appropriate and I DO NOT want to hijack the thread into "duplicators". Please let me know if this is inappropriate.

There are several duplicators out there and the principal behind them is simple. Just make sure that you use one that's stable (minimal vibration and twist).
Being new to carving I haven't yet found a way to rapidly do layout other than by templates or a duplicator. I've used spur wheels and pounce pads, carbon paper, and construction paper templates. Then I found an add for designs for this duplicator (see pic below). I find it good for layouts but I haven't found it real good for finish work - probably my cheep router - or maybe I'm just pushing it too fast. It cost me under $200 for all the materials including two (a spare) routers and took a day to build.

I do a lot of molding repeats (for me). Because I'm still building my "stock" of templates I often don't have (lets say) a egg and dart for a specific size. (Example would be wanting to match eggs at the end of a mantles center field to match the egg where it makes the turn to go aroung the columns. Or wanting it to line up with another molding, say an acanthus repeat) So I'll do the math and figure out my spacing. Then I'll layout a set of three to six repeats using bass (quick and easy). Then I'll mount it in my duplicator and do the primary lines using just one bit. This allows me to cut my layout time from hours to minutes per board. Apply that to 3-5 sticks of E&D and it makes a REAL time saver. By only doing the roughout it leaves my stock where the lines are there but once done every surface ends up with a chisel finish.

[carvendive]

Mark, your post about this type of work is EXACTLY what I've been looking for. I'm starving for Good architectual carvings and your detailing of what you are doing along with parts of the process is what I've been searching for. And actually, there are quite a few inspirational pieces (pictures) and other carvers posted on this site that will make this site my home. I'm drooling over the carved pierced vases and will be reading everything I can find on them.

Not to beat a dead horse but I'd like to add one other thing for those who feel that this type of work is outside of their ability. Somewhere on this form in the tips section someone wrote something like ... don't try something outside of your depth of knowledge or experience ... From the cups half full view - In a way I very loosly agree (but not to the extent in which he/she wrote it). An example of how I interpret that statement would be: At my experience level I would not try something that required exacting percision where l could not "borrow" some wood - go a little deeper or modify a line. Also, at this point I'm OK with some faceting. I don't have perfect chisle control - but I'm working on both the precision, control and design detail on each project. Each 10th cut I learn something new. Making a mistake and using ribboned wood made me learn more skewing techniques than I've read in any book. By having a design that allowed me to borrow wood, I was able to fix all my mistakes.

Point being is that if all I carve is E&D, but I did them perfect, my love of carving would become a bore and I'd end up selling my chisles. For me this is something that involves me to such depth that my wife has to come out to my shop to tell me it's lunch, dinner or quiting time. The only other activity that comes close to that for me is U/W Photography where I cary a extra tank just in case I get too involved.

Don't believe everything you hear. Give it a try. The very worst is that you might have something for the fireplace (either over it or in it). And either way I'll guarentee you will come away with some new skills.

[RussL.]

Mark, Carvendive,

Thanks for the details and photos of the duplicators. Very interesting.

To my hobbyist sensibilities I like the romanticized image of you guys (a few assistants<g>!) slaving over miles and miles of molding, capitals, cherubim, acanthus' or whatever...but I realize that don't pay the bills! :-)

In your businesses that sort of repeated grunt work in just a waste of time.
To me, as a hobbyist, that's sort of the point. ;-)

Thanks for the ongoing education.

All the best,

Russ

[mark yundt]

Russ,,,truth be told,,your fantasy is more of the reality. I very seldom if ever use the duplicator. I never use it for moldings,,and only occasionally use it for brackets or capitals.Yes,,I can go over them with chisels,,,but it still isn't the same. This was purely a matter of time in this situation.
I HAVE and DO slave over miles and miles of moldings. The way I feel they should be done and end up looking the duplicator doesn't quite cut it for me. I've told before of the order for 900 ft of egg and dart,,every inch done by hand,,no machines.And that was done in Cherry,,Oak,,,Pine,,Walnut and Basswood (painted)

[RussL.]

Mark wrote:
" I HAVE and DO slave over miles and miles of moldings."

Must be that's where I originally got that image then. :-)

Thank you again for the ongoing, illustrated education:
"Modern Woodcarving For a Living 101" .

All the best,

Russ

[carvendive]

Originally Posted by RussL.

Mark, Carvendive,

In your businesses that sort of repeated grunt work in just a waste of time.
Russ

RussL, seeing as how you also addressed this to me I guess I can reply. I'm not offended and I'm not intending to degrade your opinion nor is it my intent to offend you. I'm just explaining about me and my perspective.

This is not a business for me. I make my living as a Engineering systems analyst. This IS my hobby. Yea, I know I'm obsessive. Some would even say crazy. (Crazy was the 2 year mortered rock wall and flower gardens project.) But then you should see my home. It's a victorian which I build from the ground up (except for drywall and HVAC). I had one helper with the framing. Etched glass, Inlayed floors, fretwork, 3 miles of base, chair, picture, crown and case moldings (I have my own molder), heck I even did 65 dovtailed cherry drawers for the cabinets and over 200 4x4 balusters and 130' of custom handrailing for the porch.

I'm sure many would say that in todays world I'm insane but you know what... it's not a house - it's our home. When I get home from work it's like going to a turn of the century B&B. Everywhere you go there is eye candy and we constantly see guests running their hands over many of the pieces in our home. The best complement (to me) is when they say that the house looks like something they saw in pictures of midwest and east coast vic's - something from the 1910's. Then throw in our pride and satisfaction in having created it. Like I say, it's our home and I can only hope that we'll end up getting carried out feet first. A project like this had SO many grunt work jobs I don't even want to think of them. And if I had looked at that project (or my current mantle project) in total - not in individual jobs or steps - I would have never done them. But to me it was and is ANYTHING but a waste of time. It's a memory, a satisfaction and a pride that I'll charish for the rest of my life.

[mark yundt]

Well ,,since this has been my business for many years,,and people are willing to pay me for hand carvings of moldings that's what they'll get. There is no reason they too couldn't just go to Enkebol or any number of other places that feature carvings and moldings done on a duplicator,,,,,but they don't!
And funny,,,I don't consider it grunt work. I'm sure many would become bored doing this stuff,,the same egg and dart over an over,,but it certainly doesn't look like the other stuff that's available.
It's so true that most people who look at carvings,,duplicated or otherwise simply don't know the difference. They can't SEE the difference. I have no interest in those people as clients. As well as they have no interest in hiring me to do their work. Put up anything from one of the big "carving " suppliers and 90 percent of the people will OHHH and AHHHH..and think it's spectacular. Throw in some of the cast pieces and they are in Awe.
Most just simply don't know the difference. Anything you show them that is no longer a flat board just boggles their minds.
Same as when I started carving birds. Very few if any could tell my original pieces from those of a Pro. "yours looks the same as theirs,,you too could get $30,000.00 for your piece!" Most just simply don't know,,can't see,,and wouldn't appreciate the difference if you spelled it out for them.
The only thing that type of person can see is the difference in price,,,and to them it isn't worth it 'cause the CNC and duplicated piece is the same thing as the piece I just spent days carving vs.their half hour in a jig,,a bit of whittling to make it look carved then a bit of flap sanding to blend it all together and call it hand carved and done.

Gee,,,why waste all your time doing grunt work? Because that's what it takes. And that's what makes it what it is. Otherwise pay a bunch of grunts in China with no talent to run a duplicator,,pay 'em $3.00 a day to knock out stuff that many will be happy with and wouldn't know the difference anyway. Sorry,,my clients know the difference.