[arapsang]

If all goes to plan this plaque (reclaimed 50-year old iroko wood, 600mm x 300mm), will be fixed to a chapel wall slightly above eye level and where the available light is from above. An inscription is to be added later.

This is my first relief carving and I think it has now reached a position where the next few cuts will make or break it as an acceptable piece for public view. I am concerned about the eyes and lips, any comment and criticism would be welcome.

I wish I had read the discussion on the Napoleon relief carving between Ash and Doris before I started this carving. Going from front to back seems to make good sense.

Peter Connor

[Irish]

Peter, I hope you don't mind, I made a copy of your photo and will be back after I add a few guidelines.

Lora S. Irish (Susan)

[Ashbys]

Peter,

Carving from front to back in a relief is not the normal way they are done. I still relief background to make room , I just don't release the entire background.
Part of that is because I started carving from a different background . Doing mold work. In that work you start at if you will the from background and cut into the front. For me the process seemed to be the same , except now I was carving the front to elevate the work instead of recessing it.

From there it was just just a mater of giving height , instead of depth.

I had little time this morning to answer your post , so I called Susan to help. Your carving is very much like my Stonewall . Your doing a very constrained carving. These carvings are very restrictive , because you have a subject mater which requires you to carve a face , that is set and controlled.

Portrait carving will push you harder than you ever thought, every small change has reactions , not on one area but across the carving, and since it is a portrait, little changes can completly change it away from looking like the person you are trying to capture in your work.

You have a great start , and I know you wil do just fine. I willl be watching , but the best teacher I know is on her way .

Thanks Susan!

Good Luck Peter .
Ash

[doris]

peter, sorry my answer has to be somewhat short, i am just in leaving for a short travel, but want drop you a thought in hope it helps....

first, this is a wonderful start, the shadows reveal you have already created a nice illusion of depth, the roundness of the cap is superb... the eyes, and lips... i cant tell you, do this or that, since i not see the reference material you are working with, i cant see your carving from sideview, which would be helpful to see what you did to give the impression we see. i assume you have just one foto, namely showing the view as you carve... first tip : remove the carving from your carving desk, bring it in about a position as it will hang later, and try to mimik the lightning. you will be amazed how changed lightning, changes the portrait...
now, the eyes...from what i can see, you have not yet modeled the face enough. his right face area needs be a tad bit deeper than his left face area, since the head is rotated in about 45 degree. it really needs only ever so slightly deeper, but we need to see a change in the panes to belief to get the illusion the head is round, and really rotated.if you can look someones head from top, you see (ignore the hair and nose) the front is pretty strongly curved. if you can try put this in the carving.. then,look in mirror in your sideview, or a foto of a strict sideview of someone. you see how far back the eyes are in relation to where the border of the nose is. you need give us the illusionof this in the relief too, that the eyes are pushed farther than the nose. when you start pushing them back, you will notice you gain ore depth for the nose too. the whole are will look more 3d... and mouth...the mouth sits on a u-shape, which is given by the teeth inside. you have modeled that somewhat, but i think it could be stronger...again, please check all i say very carefully with your reference material, i try saying only very general, for you to find where to look...when you convinced you have this shape correctly, then, look again in mirror, you see lower lip is pushed much further back than top lip, at least in most people. so, i would cut very shallow first the dividing line of the lips, then push the lower lip a good part back, then model it and the top lip somewhat, and important, in the sidecorners of lips there is an important muscle, which makes a very characteristic groove on most people, try see that in the reference, and copy it. it will bring tons for your carving resemble the person, and only after all that, i would finish the modeling of the lips, and deepen and try to make the cut between the lips as much like as on the reference material i have.... and, if you cut, and find it not looks good, you have 30mm, you can push all back to try again, in my relief of friend, i had cut mooth area 4 times, before i was satisfied...oh, and if you want undercut, do this as very last step, you cant push things back when you have undercut already... i hope my remarks give you food for thought, you have a very good start, i am sure it will come out successfully...have happy carving

[arapsang]

Many thanks Susan, Ash and Doris for taking time to review what I have done. I have a great respect for your work and realise that you are busy productive people so your comments are doubly appreciated.
The portrait is based on a drawing of John Fisher by Holbein which I found in a book. I can post a copy of it if it is of any help.

Thanks again

Peter Connor

[Ashbys]

I know Susan has been busy,

but here is a link to a 3/4 face that I did where she help me a couple of years ago. It should help .

Ash

Stonewall 2

[arapsang]

Thanks Ash for the link. I think it will help, along with all the other advice. I have been busy carving breadboards and christening stools for the past few days so SJF has been neglected. I should get back to him tomorrow or Friday.

Thanks again

Peter Connor

[arapsang]

You can listen to all the advice and read all the posts but sooner or later you have to start chopping wood. Here's the latest situation with the SJF relief which is now going to sit on the bench for a while as I reflect on what to do next. In the meantime a warm southwest wind has brought a touch of spring and its been over a week since I fired up the bike. Life is good!

Cheers

Peter Connor

[Irish]

Hey Peter, Great start and what a wonderful piece on which to work! You have a very strong start to your work from which to pull out the face. My apologizes for not getting back sooner.

I have seen the image from which you are working but could not find a copy of it this morning. So I have picked up another that has nice dark shadows that may help you.

The 3/4 portrait is not a full 3/4's. Sometimes when your model has a bit more dramatic turn to the face they are easier to carve because you see more clearly the differences between the two sides of the face.

For your portrait there is a turn but not quite enough to 'scream' that this area is more compressed or that another area gets a little twisted.

The face in full frontal view is a mirror image of itself .. what you see on one side is only reversed for the other. The depth and the angles remain the same.

In a 3/4 view the far side of the face becomes compressed. First because of the neck.As you turn your face you will feel the skin area under the turned jaw line begin to pull a little against the jaw bone structure. If you also tilt your head as you turn it you can feel that same jaw skin become pushed into the jaw bone area. That gives you the first compression of the back side of the face.

In any picture or image the farther away an element is from the front of the design the small it gets. That's basic perspective. If you would please ... go to the mirror ... place the side edge of your hand straight across your face so that the center of your finger touches the outer edge of your right eye ... the base of your finger touches your cheek bone and your thumb cocks/slips under your chin at a right angle.

Look closely at your face. Now turn your face slightly to the left. That is the position of the face in your St. John!

The areas of your face where your hand touches are the closest points to your eye (we are going to leave the nose out of this fro a few moments) and everything falls away from that point. Even with a very slight turn as in your design those high points are your reference points.

So what you will do to the high side of St. John you will also do the far side but do it just a bit more. When you drop the eye sockets again you might want three gouge cuts down on the high side but four, maybe five on the far side.

One of the images below shows the high point areas of a slightly turned 3/4 face. The cheek on your right side is the highest point and the cheek on your left side is the highest for that side but below the cheek on the right.

The second image shows the compression of the far side of the face. Notice how when you draw a line through the different areas of the face those lines get a little closer on the far side.

Right now, if it were me I would drop the eye sockets more - they are the deepest area of your face. I would drop the area right beneath his nose and taper it to rise up for the lips and I would taper the forehead from the brow ridge back to the hat area.

Also to help your compression I would angle the chin line and underneath the chin so that the far side of this area is small-narrower than it is now.

Susan

Image:PontormoStJohn.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The two-dimensional work of art depicted in this image is in the public domain
in the United States and in those countries with a copyright term of life of
the author plus 100 years. Under American copyright law, originality of
expression is necessary for copyright protection, and a mere photograph of an out-of-copyright work may not be protected under American copyright law.

[arapsang]

Thanks, Susan for all the advice. You are a good teacher and I appreciate the time you have spent on my problem. I'll get back to carving tomorrow. I hope I have sufficient skill to do justice to your lesson.

Thanks again

Peter