Tools: they make em' better than they used to?

[-JBergs-]

Did I really just say that?

I mean, don't get me wrong; I love the classic Addis', Bucks Bros., Herring Bros., Barton, etc. as much as the next guy and over the last year I've bought a couple dozen... I also started out carving using a brand new 12 pc. set of Two Cherries (German) tools which I love. I also have a few Pfeil (Swiss made) tools which I really like.

You always here "they sure don't make em' like they used to" and "the tool steel on those [tools] made years ago doesn't compare to that of today" so ... I'm sure that is true with much of what is produced today but is it really true for some of the top of the line makers of our beloved new tools? Such as Pfeil, Two Cherries, Ashley Isles, Dastra, etc.?

Can anyone or does anyone have any technical information or opinion on the differences in the tool steel of yesteryear compared to that of today?

[pallin]

I do not have technical information, but my impression is that older tools were made of carbon steel which took a fine edge but had a tendency to rust. More recent tools have used steel formulations that are brighter, thus better looking and more attractive to buyers. Some of these formulations do not hold a fine edge as well as the old carbon steel. So some tool makers have said "to heck with pretty metals," let's make sharp tools - so you have Flexcut.

[Donsexton]

They gauge how hard steel is by Rockwell hardness testing its international recognized by all engineers. Yes including MIT and Cambridge but that is not the best way to know how good a woodcarving tool is. The much lauded samurai sword would not fair well on the Rockwell test. When tools are made by a blacksmiths they would hammer in carbon from the coke used to heat the steel. Here is the part that Pfeil only carvers wont like they gain hardness and durability from chromium not carbon. The Germans perfected the metal alloy that gave us great ball bearings and Pfeil tools. I don’t prefer alloy tools I like carbon steel tools I like Henry Taylor YES WITH BLACK MILL SCALE ON THEM straight from the forge. I like blued guns and black steel york olympic weights I like old Case XX pocket knives but that’s just me.

[-JBergs-]

pallin thanks for responding... but is it really an "either, or" scenario between pretty metals and sharp edges or will the newer, more technologically advanced tool steels deliver both? I guess that's the question I'm getting at:

I'm not metalogist but if we were to ask what the most important characteristics are in tool steel subject to carving tools, would the old or newer steels be better after considering all of the variables? Some of which may be:

- Hardness
- Edge holding capability
- ???

[-JBergs-]

I'm with you Don ... you know how to make those dirty old mill scaled tools sound like something beautiful, and they are just that... that's not to say that my German Two Cherries tools which are mirror polished don't hold an edge either; actually they may very well be the best I've used and I have all of the aforementioned in my tool roll. Then again I haven't been doing this for 20 years, or even 10 years straight as of yet so perhaps time will tell on some of these newer tools.

[GregD]

Originally Posted by Donsexton

. The much lauded samurai sword would not fair well on the Rockwell test. .

I think there is a misunderstanding about the Japanese sword,while about 75-80% of the sword is considered "soft",the edge is usually selectively heat treated from the high 50'sR.c to somewhere in the low to mid 60s
Greg

[Robson Valley]

Pallin: I agree. I've had enough run-ins with modern steel carving tools, in the past 12 months, to say that the quality is really uneven (Pfeil included). Pitted & chipped skews that just won't grind out. Factory crap with bent corners and pitted edges.

However. You buy old tools, who is to say that the old guys didn't have to grind out a lot of crap, too? They might look just fine and dandy now.

[davidinsarasota]

Good comments all. Another quality of carving gouges is body thickness or slenderness. I prefer thinner bodied tools since they are easier to tune--less time on the stone is good. I'm speculating here, but I suspect the newer tools made with a more scientific approach to alloy blending are thinner bodied. This is probably because they can (stronger steel) and because it is more economical, saving on material.

Edge strength is still paramount of course. Unfortunately all of my tools are modern era, so I have no basis for comparison. Chris Pye has a lot of interesting insights about this subject in his "Tools and Techniques" books. In one instance he shows an older tool that has a thinner body than a newer tool.

[nlcromwell]

I am not a 20 year veteran carver myself, nor have i used a lot of different tools. However, I have been buying and collecting quality knives for many years. I like the old 1095 carbon steel for a working knife but I must say that there are much better steels available today. When you get into the so called "super steels" for knives, most are Stainless or near stainless. (no steel is truely stainless). No matter what the steel the greater issue is the tempering of it. So you can have 420 stainless correctly tempered perform better than 440C incorrectly tempered. Unfortunately, the makers of many or most carving tools do not post what steel they are using or how it is tempered. Some Japanese tools being the exception here. All in all, the modern technical/computerized controls available today in commercial steel manufacture can produce a product superior to most hand forged steels. The controls are just better. The question is, what tool manufacturers utilized that better steel? It cost more and therefore increases production costs. I don't know the answer to that.
NLCromwell

[Robson Valley]

nlc: the steels of today _should_ be better that those of the past. My few years of carving (started maybe '85) show me that it's still a crap-shoot. Maybe the stuff they make on Mondays and Fridays is poor.

I have seen recemtly some unbelievably bad Pfeil carving tools: pitted edges and bent/peened corners! Not mine but I tuned them all up (and got one for $20!!)
Bought a pair of the "economical" 1/2" skews from LV. I'm not sure that I will ever get the pits out of the edges. . . . just seems really brittle steel. However, they are useable for rough work.

In my style(?) of carving in red cedar, the Swedish Mora hook/hoof knives are really useful.
They come rough sharpened at 30 degrees. I change that to 20 degrees. They hold a useful edge for as long as the good Pfeil tools do.