[Marci MN]

Thank you Linda! Yes that description of bringing the loop under the wrapping will come in handy for me too.

I didnt know that about Eagle feathers. You see so many of them with black almost to the ends and then white at the end. That was what I was going to do with these white feathers. Maybe its just to fool the mind to thinking they are Eagle feathers. Worked for me. LOL

Thanks again.. This has been an interesting topic.

[Plain_Ol_Ed]

I think a few of those laws are state laws. The migratory bird is federal, but think the found wood and some of the rest are state. I know in Texas you can pick up all the drift wood and rocks you want with impunity. If there's a law against it, nobody (including the game wardens and corps of engineers) cares. Now if it just came as cut outs ready to carve! It's been a long time since I lived in Minnesota (45 years or so), but it was o.k. then. Of course a lot of things were o.k. then that aren't now!

[Linda L]

You are welcome Marci. I just recently did the research on this, so the timing was perfect. It was one of those things that was in my "subconcious" that had bothered me for years and suddenly one day it hit me. I have seen the Eagles close up, and the tail feathers are white. So, my question was why are they selling these black and white, calling them Eagle feathers?

I did some research, and for a change I was right! If I remember correctly, even the Golden Eagle is a dark brown, not black, but the mottling is at least close.

My guess is, somone took some artistic license and decided the black wing tips cross the tail when the eagle is sitting causing just a tip of white to show and decided they must have some black under there.

Don't you just hate it when something like this perpetuates itself??? I wonder how many people actually think an Eagle tail feather has black on it?

Do remember though that an immature Bald has mottled feathers!

Linda

[AlArchie]

Linda, the law (well, it's really a regulation) is a federal one implemented by the USFS governing the Great Lakes and it's connecting waters, and some other specific areas. And they DO enforce it!

The regulation governing rocks was developed to prevent large commercial outfits from removing tons of "sauna stones" from the shorelines for sale to private outlets, so I guess I can understand that, and the one about driftwood was probably developed for a similar reason. We often used to see large tandem trailers heading south with loads of driftwood. However the few folks that have been busted for "stealing" driftwood, have been ma and pa taking some for the yard, etc. Probably been more, but those are the ones that get publicised.

Re; eagle feathers and imitations. The bald eagle has an all white tail. No black tips. The tips were dyed for cermonial or recognition purposes. These "coup feathers" were dyed, trimmed and otherwisw decorated with paint and horsehair, to indicate various stages of a young brave's development, whether he had been wounded in battle, if he had stolen horses, if he had killed an enemy in combat or in hand to hand fighting, or if he had taken "coup" by touching an enemy in bttle or while he slept and did NOT kill kim. If you'd like I can run a copy off from an old Seaton book with some of the coup designations.

Al

[AlArchie]

Here's a set of coup featers from the Reader's Digest "America's Fascinating Indian Heritage"

I have the Ernest T. Seaton set, too, but they are small and I'd have to redraw them all by hand...too much work for me today.

Al

[Linda L]

Thanks Al, this answers a question that have bugged me for years! I've printed it for later reference. I minored in Native American Studies in college and have participated in a lot of ceremonies, but never saw this. Probably because the West Coast Tribes have different traditions, though many have intergrated into the culture from the East.

In Washington State, we DO have regulations about "collecting" but most are Federal. I mentioned the St. Helen's pumice, but in the past years, regulations were put into effect in the National Parks/Forests. Individuals are allowed a "handful" of shells or rocks, I don't recall seeing anything about driftwood.

On the other hand you reminded me that in the National Forest, you have to get a permit to collect limited Plant specimens (including small walking stick tree parts.) About 10 years ago I applied for a permit to collect rocks and saplings for my sweat lodge. I remember not being sure how to answer the question "How many rocks and trees will you be taking!" I sense when I put "for religious purpose' on the application they were very helpful. Hey, as I see it, carving is a "medical"or "spiritual" reason---sure imporves my mental health when I carve !

I can see your point. Commercial taking could cause a lot of damage to the river banks. There were signs everywhere in the National Forest saying permits were required for any harvesting of timber. I'm sure that's to prevent the average "Joe" from helping themselves to a winter supply of firewood at the expense of sales to businesses, or illegal businesses harvesting to sell firewood.

Great information and discussion. Too bad it is "lost" in the "Tips and Tricks Forum. Could be very useful in the General Forum, too! Maybe Bob could move it?

Thanks again, great info!

Linda

[AlArchie]

Linda, this probably should be in one of the "Off Topic" sections, but......

A lot of the Northwest Native culture hs been preserved "as is" or "as was", anyway. However, a lot of the native customs from the woodland, plains and desert area were lost in the ensuing period after the defeat of the Indians in the 1800's. Our government (then, not now) was responsible for a great deal of this cultural loss. A lot of the cultural preservation, on the other hand was done by non native historians and anthropologists. One of these, was Ernest Thompson Seaton, one of Boy Scouting's
early executives. His collections and writings have gone a long way to preserving many of the cremonies and dances, even though they may have been somewhat corrupted by the "cultural lens", as I like to call it.

Unfortunately, a lot of the Native cultural elements have become mish-mashed into one "Indian Cultural Traditions clump". There are segments of the origianl societies that are gradually reconstituting their original traditions as best is possible, but they too have been corrupted by the methods of recording them.

For instance, in our area (upper mid-west-Great Lakes area, it is quite common to see Ojibwe wearing dress and acrutements from the Plains and SW tribal traditions. Mention was made just a few days ago about the False Face Societies of the eastern woodland tribes, as if this was a wide spread tradition. It was, within certain geographical and cultural boundaries, but was not necessarily wide spread. On the other hand there were huge trade routes throughout the entire continental area, that are quite surprising considering the lack of ready transportation. Copper artifacts from the Lake Superior south shore copper have been uncovered as far to the SE as Florida, and as far SW as the southern parts of NM and even into northern Mexico. Lake Superior Copper is uniqely identifiable by metalurgical content so the sources have been positively identified.

Well, I'm rambling again.....gotta learn to just shut up!

Al

[Linda L]

Intersting (to me at least, as it is a favorite research topic of mine).

I spent several years trying to study the Pacific NW (Coastal and Puget Sound) Tribes in Washington State many years ago---specifically, the art and ceremonies. Very little was written about it, except to say that most of the art originated from further north along the Canadian coast and Alaskan Tribes.

As I was welcomed into the "inner circle" of the local tribes, I found that many of their "traditions" were really based on the different Souix traditions. Still haven't been able to identify a lot of "original" Pacific NW arts and traditions.

Maybe someday I'll have to go back and try again. I wrote a paper of the history of our local Nisqually Tribe in college, and really had to research to find anything. A lot more has been published since.

Geesh, another thing to add to my "round tuit" list!

Linda

[GILLY]

Check out the Kwakuitl people of the North Vancouver Island area, Port Hardy, Alert Bay. I had the privlage of working with these folks, ate at feasts, potlaches, They even got me dressed up in a beautiful cedar headress and a button blanket, and I danced to the drums of some elders.

[Linda L]

Boy, we've strayed off topic, but informative none the less!

The Kwakuitl are the main influence for the art of the Pacifc NW, yet they are quite a distance away which always puzzled me. The coastal tribes in Washington have almost identical art forms and customs. To reach Washingon coastal areas from up north, they would have had to travel a great distance on rough seas. Amazing to me. Of course, there was a love/hate relationship with the two Tribes, many conflicts in history.

On the other hand, the Puget Sound area (the inland salt water in Washington) Tribes developed completely different traditions. The Olympic Mountains were a natural barrier that did separate them. Their art was still the stylized art associated with the Northwest and Kwakuitl, but their attire, dances, and ceremonies resemble more of the Sioux influence. They tended to be more involved and traded with the inland Nez Pierce Tribes in Eastern Washington. I suspect the Nez Pierce were more influenced by the Tribes in Idaho and Montana.

It's fun to go to a Pow Wow and see the interactions of the two sides of the mountains. The coastal Tribes are very distictive in their dance, using the button blanket and different dance styles. Much more reserved than the flashy regalia of the Puget Sound Tribes.

Being a purist, I always thought that the stylized art of the Northwest was only done in Black and Red. At a recent carving show I talked with a carver doing "traditional NW carving." I finally got the courage up to ask why he was using orange and light blue colors as he seemed quite knowlegeable. Duh! He pointed out that the red "faded" over time to orange, and the tourquois, if I recall was from abolone shell originally.

Still, the black and red is the most common seen in the art form. (and my favorite )

Linda