[chuckt]

Hey there folks. There's a LOT of collective wisdom up here on the boards, so I thought I'd try seeking some advice for a situation I find myself in. This is LONG and I apologize, but if you have the patience to read I'd appreciate advice on how best to handle this.

We had our front hallway, dining rooom, living room, and upstairs hallway floors redone with Bruce oak pre-finished hardwood floors just before Christmas. Total square footage was probably around 1000 - 1200 sq ft, and the total price for materials and install ended up at around $5700.

We made the purchase through a local flooring dealer who subcontracted the work out. The installers were 2 young guys (early 20's - mid 20's) from Brazil I believe. In any case, they removed the old W2W carpet from the LR/DR, and the parquet flooring from the front hallway and the upstairs hallway. But they did NOT remove the particle board underlayment that sits on top of the 3/4" ply subfloor (which I discovered when I got home that day - I unfortunately had to work). Anyway - towards the end of the day I got home to discover that they had nicked a baseboard hot water heating pipe in the front hallway which of course flooded the area before my wife got the master shut off turned off. They stopped for the day without installing the flooring in the front hall so that we could get the pipe repaired and offered to pay for the repair.

A plumber friend came and fixed us up that night, and we contacted the flooring store who confirmed they would pay the bill. But then I began to look at the flooring that had been installed in the LR/DR. I noticed that on several places the board ends did not match up evenly (where they butt together) and were in some plavces off by about 1/32". Not a lot - but noticeable, and you'd definitely feel it as significant running your hand over it. This raised concerns about it eventually chipping. We also noticed in several areas they had used a nail gun to drive staples or nail into the top face of the flooring around the perimeter. Near the edges, but leaving noticable divits in the top face of the flooring.

So the flooring store representative came out the next day and looked it all over with my wife. He pointed out that the floor was not totally level in the area where the worst misalignments appeared, and explained that these end to end slight mismatches were nothing out of the ordinary and that you need to be more concerned about mismatches in levels from side edge to side edge as these were more prone to chipping and splintering. They completed the job that day and then I got home to discover that with the new flooring in the front hall, the front door would barely open. The new flooring was 3/4" thick as compared to the 1/4 - 3/8" thickness of the previous parquet flooring. They ended up having to remove the weather stripping from the bottom of my relatively new front doors to get it to open and there is no room now for an entry carpet to protect the HW floor. In any case, because it was just before the holidays we signed off on the job and made out final payment figuring we'd just have to live with it.

It is now a month later and we are noticing that indeed there were more areas where the flooring was not perfectly level on the long edges and we are seeing chipping of the finish and minor splintering in those areas. The more we think about it we realized that the reason the flooring may not have been level was that when they removed the carpet/parquet flooring they left the somewhat rough particle board underlayment. We believe that this should have been removed totally. This would have left the floor at a proper height to fit with clearance under the front door too.

In our opinion, the flooring really ought to be taken back out (only the edges were nailed/glued down according to my wife, so they could re-use the majority of it. Then the old particle board subfloor should be ripped out and have a new underlayment put down for a perfectly flat surface to reinstall the hardwood on top of.

Does this sound correct? We paid almost $6000 to get this flooring and have it installed by a professional so it would be done right. They never advised that they should remove the old underlayment - and I would have paid the extra labor to do so if that was what was required for a correct install. We have not approached the flooring store yet, to see about what they suggest to do, but I have a feeling they'll want us to just use the chip crayon to try and cover over the problem areas. What recourse do we have at this point?

Any thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated. We probably should have just bought the material and found our own installer. But hidsight as they say . . . .

ChuckT

[Scott Hagerty]

http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/f...1/subfloor.htm

Check out the above link on the preparation for installing a hardwood floor. Took only seconds to come up with on Google using "hardwood floor installation tips". I think they messed up in not removing the particle board and replacing it with a thinner sheeting over the subfloor. Note, the overlayment, no matter what it is, will only be as level as the subfloor. Thinner sheeting would have eliminated the problem with the door.

Give the retail store a chance to make it right. You'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

This advise is only worth what you paid for it. LOL.

[Lynn O. Doughty]

For the cost you paid the cost of the underlayment would be quite inexpensive. Surly there is a guarantee for the flooring. I'd call them back and demand they do it right. A reputable contractor doesn't show up after the job is done and then tell you what was wrong and it's your fault. They should have recognized those problems, any problems, before they did the installation. Supposedly they're the experts.

It's a sad testimony on workmanship standards these days that to get the job satisfaction you want you have to assume the role of supervisor.

[chuckt]

That's what we're feeling too - that they should have advised us on any problems with the install beforehand. <grrrr> Well, I think my wife was wrong on the nailing thing. I can't believe they wouldn't have nailed this flooring down properly. Also, I think it may have been OSB and not "particle board" underlayment, which according to the Bruce Installation information is acceptable IF it is of a certain grade. (No way to know that now though)

So my guess is that the only way to correct this now, is to rip it ALL back out again, and replace it all with new flooring. Basically do the whole job over again, plus remove the old subfloor. I have a bad feeling that they'll resist making this right.

We'll see. I'll have to go in a hava a conversation with them (I hate these types of confrontations.) Will the fact that we "signed off" on it and made the final payment create a problem for us?

Thanks for the advise.
ChuckT

[mdallensr]

but true and necessary: write letters, write letters, and write letters. Copy your State AG, the local Chamber of Commerce and BBB. If you don't get quick results with what you've done already, you're not likely to get satisfaction. Good luck. Mike

[rickm]

I had a similar problem with flooring. To the tune of 28,000. fact is once you sign off on it, your only recourse is to sue them in civil court. I would look for an attorney you can talk to, but unless as someone suggests, you rip it back and have a close inpection you have no idea of what they did. At this point in the game without adequate proof, and having signed off on it, it might be more expensive to fight it than to live with it.

[Eddy Smiles]

I think Mike has pointed you in the right direction.... get that computer fired off and start writing letters letters as suggested. Some of your correspondance can be done on line as some state's BBB's have on line access. You've got a lot of money riding on this so if you use snail mail send it registered. If you feel that any part of the problem is covered under warranty be sure to highlight that in your letters. If you have an attorney be sure to include his name as an info addee even if you don't plan to send him a copy at that particular time. Remember, in the begining you'll get more cooperation with politeness and courtesy than agression so play it cool. There will be plenty of time to turn up the heat if the contractor refuses to cooperate. If this contractor does care about his reputation and is willing to work with you he may just need a little nuge in that direction. I recently went through a similiar incident. It took six months and my continuous refusale to sign off on his offers to the BBB but he finally saw things my way in order to clear his good name on the BBB site.

[susieq]

Chuck,
I work for an attorney. We see similar problems all the time. I can't quote prices for your area but our firm charges in the neighborhood of $150-$200 to write a letter on our law firm letter head, threatening legal action if the problem cannot be resolved any other way. Some times that is all it takes.

If not, you have to decide how much you are willing to pay to pursue this. The attorney will want a retainer (which is just a chunk of money that he will work off of at his hourly rate until it's gone, then he will want more if the case is on going) to start proceedings. Usually $500 to $1500 depending on the attorney. He will also want filing fees for the courts and the fees to pay a server to serve the complaint. Then the other side will hire an attorney. There will be a lot of posturing between the two sides. Each side will send their opponent Interrogatories (a bunch of questions they want you to answer, including have you ever filed suit before, etc) and Request Production (where they ask for Income tax records, and everything else under the sun that they can think of...strictly an intimidation tactic.)

Then there will be the attorneys wanting to depose each other's clients. Then your attorney will do a motion for jury trial (or non jury trial) and their will be a hearing on the motion. The judge will order mediation at that point.
The two sides and their attorneys will sit with a professional mediator (who gets several hundred dollars an hour and this cost is split between the two sides.) If you can reach an agreement fine. Everyone signs off on it, pays their attorneys and go their merry ways. If no agreement is reached, it's off to court. Who ever loses, pays the other guys legal fees.

And....just because you get a judgment in your favor it doesn't guarantee you will collect. You may have to place a lien against the contractors property/shop or what ever to ever see a dime.

One more thing. Forget what ever you have seen on Perry Mason.... the attorney keeps a billing log. Every single time he talks to you or responds to a message you left with his secretary, it goes on your billing log in the form of .10 hours or .20 hours etc to be added up when it's all over and you get charged the hourly rate. Our hourly rate is $225 an hour. Going to court...driving time is figured in also. You cannot just pick up the phone call the office expecting to get your attorney on the phone. That is what appointments are for. When he is not with a client, he is doing the actual work of the client's. If they stopped working to speak to a client who only wants " to talk to him for 5 minutes" they would never get anything done.

The secretary's job is to find out what the client wanted to know and try and get an answer for him...but it's still going on the billing log. She tries to determine if she can get a quick answer for the client or whether he needs an appointment to discuss more than can be accomplished in a phone message. Appointments go on as well...half an hour..... .5 billable hours.

Client's get frustrated because they don't understand why they can't get the attorney on the phone for 5 minutes. But this is standard procedure. We (the secretaries) take a lot of abuse because we are caught in the middle.
We also have an unwritten rule...most offices do. If you are rude to the staff, your work goes to the bottom of the pile.

I hope I haven't discouraged you completely, just giving you a heads up about what you are in for if you head to civil court. I do recomend you speak to an attorney. Maybe the letter will do the trick. I wish you well.

[Ron Davidson]

I always removed the old subflooring and in the long run saved allot of headaches with the ends not matching like you said. You should never have to nail these types of flooring they are meant to float. Talk to the place where you bought from let them know how unhappy you are with the job and get them to do it right. Another thing to do is get an independent well known contractor to give it a going over to see what he says it will give you a expert opinion that may help. The place of purchase should be willing to work with you if they want repeat business.
Ron

[cats pa]

Originally Posted by chuckt

But they did NOT remove the particle board underlayment that sits on top of the 3/4" ply subfloor...they had nicked a baseboard hot water heating pipe in the front hallway which of course flooded the area... with the new flooring in the front hall, the front door would barely open...In any case, because it was just before the holidays we signed off on the job and made out final payment figuring we'd just have to live with it.

Okay, Chuck, if I may be so bold, the mistake scoreboard now stands at them:3, you:1. The game's not over yet, apparently, but you don't want to make any more mistakes, as in letting those clowns anywhere near your neighborhood, much less your house.

I'm no lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, but I have installed hardwood floors and laminate of several different types - successfully, I might add. In fact, my feet are resting comfortably on varnished maple as I type these words.

First, particle board sucks as an underlayment. If there is any good use of PB, floors are not it. When, not if, it absorbs moisture, it swells up like crazy and then disintegrates into the sawdust from whence it came. Any professional floor layer will take precautions against this problem, usually removing it and resheeting with thinner material (1/4" ACX plywood is common here). Had your clowns done that, problem # 3, the door not closing, wouldn't have happened.

Second, it sounds like they were removing the parquet when they busted the pipe, which flooded the area. Then they finished installing the next day: big mistake! At that point, the moisture content of the flooded area had to be somewhere in the 30-50% range, and flooring over it trapped all that moisture under there, which is why you're seeing cupping now - the underside of each flooring board is expanding while the top side is still tight.

If the hardwood was installed anywhere close to correctly, it won't be reuseable when you take it up. There are two distinct installation methods for plank flooring, floating and blind-nailed. A floating floor is needed when, for example, you install a radiant heating system and 1) you can't nail into the cement or gypcrete that the tubes/coils/piping are imbedded in, and 2) the heat and cooling is going to expand and contract the flooring. In this case, a thin foam liner is laid down and the edges of each plank are glued in the tongue and groove. If it's done right, the glue joint is as strong or stronger than the wood itself, and when you tear it out, you end up with kindling. Unless you sawcut it into sections for removal, but reinstallation requires milling new tongues and grooves in your sawcut edges, and you lose about 1/2" per section, so you have to have extra planks to fill the gap...

You description sounds more like blind nailing was their method, in which each tongue is nailed every couple feet and then the groove of the next plank is fitted over it, banged up tight, and that tongue nailed, etc. When you dismantle this, you'll split off at least every other tongue. Reinstallation requires ripping the remnants of the tongues off, and remilling new tongues, which means you lose more than 1/2" per plank, so you have to have extra planks to fill the gap...

(summary of last 2 paragraphs: chances are about 10 to 1 you won't be able to reuse much if any of that flooring).

A few more questions, if you don't mind:

Did they deliver the flooring about a week early and pull the wrappers? This would allow the hardwood to acclimate itself to the temp and humidity conditions in the house. If not, that accounts for the 1/32" gaps (you're lucky they're that small), because the planks were stored in a cooler/more humid place and shrunk after being banged up tight.

Did they use a moisture meter to test both the flooring and the subsurface before starting installation, and use supplemental heat and airflow if needed? I like to get down to about 6%, but I've done it at 8 and been okay. Much above that and you start to risk noticeable shrinkage.

Did the installers have a van or box truck with their business name on it (not the floor shop name)? You might be in a better legal position if they were employees of the floor shop than subcontractors. The fact that the floor rep agreed to pay for the plumbing repair makes me think they work directly for him. If that's the case, you can avoid a lot of useless finger-pointing.

I think you need a competent pro on your side, both as an expert witness if needed, and as a problem-solving consultant. Here's what I would do - ask around and find the best independent floor layer you can find. Offer him 50 or 100 bucks to come over and take a look at what you've got. Ask him to meter the floor and any part of the subfloor you can get to. If the moisture problem can be solved, ask him if there's any chance of sanding and refinishing the floor in place, and filling the cracks at the same time. Ask him if his finisher could do that, or who he could recommend.

Refinishing a floor is something you might could do yourself, but only as a last resort. It's brutal hard work and the chemicals are nasssssty. DAMHIKT. The floor store owes you a fix, so try that avenue first, but don't trust anyone associated with them as far as you can throw them. That last guy was full of sh...aving cream.

HTH and good luck,

Parker

p.s. 5 bucks/sf is a dirt cheap installed price for pre-fin hardwood flooring, so I think they were slamming it out to make any profit at all. My last job (raw oak) cost the homeowner closer to 13-14, came out breathtakingly beautiful, and is the focal point of the whole house.