[Ashbys]

Bob,
there really should be no reason that it should not be possible to disscuss the topic. But In wood carving there are many lines which seem to get crossed as to what something is or is not.
The easy way to answer would be the one most accepted byy the general public, that would be Hand carved, means done by hand. This would infer that no, machine was used in the carving of the product.
This is where the issuse really lines, not in the prep of the product, the using of a band saw the cutting of the tree , the using of a scroll saw but in the carving.

The Dictionary defines a machine as "any mechanical or electrical device that transmits or modifies energy to perform or assist in the performance of human tasks". Using this discription any use of a power tool in the carving would mean machine assisted and not hand carved.

This is the concept the general public has about hand carved. As well as the reason they ask, or consider use of a dremel or foreman cheating.

Ash

[Kenny_S]

I guess it depends on what you consider Hand tools?

[Hi_Ho_Sliver]

Originally Posted by BobD

As far as unimportant...I think that's a matter of opinion (and I know we've all got them).

This thread may seem unimportant, and may have come up several times, but it's interesting to me because it's the philosophy of carving! The intellectuals spend hours discussing the ideas behind Picasso's Blue Period, or Munk's Scream...why can't we do the same with our work! We can't carve all the time <grin>

Bob

Who says we can't? lol

[Kenny_S]

I guess if you use nothing but knives and gouges to carved the piece, then use a foredom or Dremel to clean up the cuts or smooth it out, the General public and some wood carvers would consider that as cheating eh?

The purist need a lession in what the old style of carving is, Sure wasn't or isn't store bought gouges and these small bladed knives.

[mdallensr]

There is some evidence in the carving community that this issue is important. Some carving competitions have made categories for carvings from rough-outs, recognizing those carvings are not original designs and were partly produced by a machine. I've seen some really good carvings produced from rough-outs, but when you see a half dozen carvings at a show that are nearly identical, it's hard to think of all of them as "hand-carved originals".

IMO, if we represent our carvings to the public, for sale or in competitions, we have to care about their expectations and perceptions as much as we care about our own. If we carve for our own pleasure, we only have to do the latter. When I give my carvings as Christmas gifts, to family and friends, they know I made it for them. Most of them know me well enough to know I don't have an artistic bone in my body, so the design probably isn't my own. That doesn't seem to matter to any of them or me. If I put the same carvings in a show, I'd give credit to the designer.

I think this issue will become more important, or at least more of an issue. I think we'll see more shows and competitions requiring credits for designs, rough-outs and carving techniques. I'd like to see that, not in a critical or punitive way, but just to help the public know how carvings are made. Rather than add new categories to segregate carvings into narrowly defined groups, let them compete on the qualities of the finished carving, and let the judges and public decide what's important and what's not.

[Big_Al]

When I do shows, I use the term " knife carved" no sanding. Enough said. Big Al

[Hi_Ho_Sliver]

There are duplicators or cmc machines or whatever, that I understand will do a complete carving and you can't hardly tell the difference whether its hand carved or not.......now that is "not " hand carved....but everything else in my opinion, if you have to handle it and remove wood.....its hand carved!

[Kenny_S]

Duplucators? Now that tears it!
It is a communist plot to take over the carving world!!!

[Paul_Guraedy]

I believe that we are confusing the comments of a few (probably serious collectors) with the general opinions of most non-carvers. Primarily, because these parameters are of importance to us woodcarvers.

It has been my experience that most people observing woodcarvings ask the same few questions: 1. Was that carved from a single block of wood? 2. What kind of wood is that? 3. How long did it take you to carve it? 4. Did you carve it? 3. How did you carve it? 4. How much would it cost?

My answers of: 1. No, and I explain feather inserts. I also explain that, although carving from a single block of wood is certainly challenging, I believe, the use of inserts in such a manner that they are virtually invisible is equally difficult. 2. Tupelo, basswood, butternut, etc. can divert the entire conversation as most are totally unfamiliar with anything other than pine or oak. 3. Usually longer than they would have anticipated elicits the comment, “I would not have that much patience�. 4. Yes. 5. I use knives, gouges, and a dremel (I don’t have a dremel; but, they at least know what it is and have never heard of a foredom). This response in no way diminishes their respect for the carving. 6. I don’t sell my carvings except on commission or unusual occasions; but, would want $xxx if it were for sale That usually ends any interest in purchasing by the average non-carver.

I spent my working life in contact with people experiencing the unfamiliar. Through years of observation I have found that most are extremely interested, willing to listen to logical explanations, want to learn, and quickly shed the prejudices that they have held. Hopefully, this is accomplished without being replaced by our own prejudices.

This thread is interesting in that it is making us take another look at our own beliefs. We all need to take any opportunity available to educate the public about our art/craft/or whatever it is.

And at the risk of swirling the waters further:
1. Is a piece carved totally with hand tools, but with hair, feathers or such, burned in still hand carved?
2. Is a piece carved totally with hand tools; but air brushed hand carved and power painted?

[Dylan]

Do you carve wood with your finger nails? If not you cheating! Since you have to use tools I say relax and use whatever tools you can/want to. Just don't let the computer get a hold of them.

Dylan