[Thomp]

brian,

I Agree Anealing the tip releaves the mechanical stress in the wire if there happends to be any from manufacturing,
their probobaly made on an assembly line by a robot,
most tips are probaly bent, stamped to shape and lazer welded, and sharpened, in one fell swoop then moved on to the packaging department never being attached to a burner to test for function,,, except the few for they would quality controll, but after them tips are heated they would look used, and so there probably given away for promo...

so the heat cleaning of burning off the carbon, was a site managers preferance not a manufactures suggestion...
thanks for taking the time to post that clairification...

[Pyrographer]

Regarding annealing. Razertip and Optima pens DO NOT require annealing and should not be annealed.

the annealing process you are talking about is recommended by the manufacturer of Detailmaster, not woodcarving supply. It doesn't make sense to me because if you turn the temp up so the pens get red hot your just shortening the life of the pen so why would you want to do it???

The annealing process actually recommended by Detailmaster will only shorten the life of the pen....so a ha yes, you will then have to buy a new pen in a few years!!!!

It's great that Cam has come here to explain more about the Razertip. It would be nice to get Bob Boyer on here to explain why he recommends annealing his pens.

No matter what, if you own a Razertip or Optima DO NOT anneal your pens!!!! That is unless you want to buy more pens prematurely!

Nedra

[brian bailey]

Yes, Detail Master recommends that you anneal the tip first.

They state in their handpiece instructions that they utilize space age metal for the burning tip. Annealing will remove brittleness and stresses within the tip.

It's pretty obvious to me what the brand flavor is on this forum, so I'm bailing out on this topic. Sorry I mentioned Detail Master.

[Pyrographer]

Hi Brian, I didn't mean to be negative about Detailmaster but I've had bad experiences with their pens and they are less than open about their pens and what that "space aged metal" is. I've seen adn used the pens and the material in the tips looks very much like the Optima and Razertip who state that their tips are a nikel/chromium alloy. Not sure if that's space aged or middle aged metal though.

I have no idea how any of them make their pens but since Cam from Razertip is on this board perhaps he'd like to answer that.

Cam, I hate to keep buggin you (I know your busy) but you seem to be the only "expert" in the field interested and willing to educate the bunch of us. Could you perhaps explain how the pens are made and why they would or would not need annealing from a manufacturers standpoint.

Nedra

[Thomp]

brian im here only to learn, im not a owner or user of a woodburner, and since its so hard to learn anything from the internet becuse anybody that can get to a computer can write anything they want as an openion, its hard to get the truth
on any subject.

I know i am flip flopping around here on openions, between brand names and usefull abilitys thinking all the time the industry standards are pretty much the same untill i read that about cranking up the knob to just burn off carbon..
it blew my train of thought on what i had read everywhere else. about the nibs being weakened by higher temps....


funny how the technology hasent differed much from the disposable wart removal tools the dr. use to use in the late 60's

[brian bailey]

Thomp,

I can understand your confusion, it's sometimes hard to separate the wheat from the chaff.

By no means take what I'm about to say as coming from an expert, that I'm not!

But if you take a closer look at the burning systems that are being hyped here, you'll find a that there is not much to them.

Basically you have 2 parts. A power supply and a pen.

The power supply is nothing more than a stepping down transformer that reduces the line voltage from 110 v. to a low voltage of 2 to 3 volts.

Next in line in the power supply is some sort of rectifier, this converts the 2 to 3 volts A.C.(alternating current) to 2 to 3 volts D.C.(direct current).

D.C. is the current that flows thru your pen, this is regulated by some sort of rheostat that adjusts the current flow (low to high, high to low).

Next you add an off/ on switch and a couple of jacks to plug in your pens and your good to go.

Oh you'll also need a power supply cord to go from the wall outlet to the transformer or the whole thing won't work! A case to put all this stuff in might be handy too.

Part 2 is your pen.
All this is, is some sort of mechanical device to hold a piece of high resistance wire that has the metalurgic properties to withstand high temps without deforming. A cord of low resistance wire (lamp cord) and a plug to match the jack in your power supply rounds out this part.

The amount of amperage that flows thru the high resistance wire will determine how hot the wire will get.

That's it in a nut shell. Since we are dealing with low voltage, low amperage parts, I would expect low cost for parts.

Radio Shack probabaly has the parts to make a power supply at a fraction of the cost of a commercial unit.

If it was me I'd buy commercial made pens though.

My 2 cents ....


In adden...

After I wrote the above, being the inquisitive type that I am. I went and opened (gasp) my Detail Master power supply.

I found that the temp. of the pen is controlled by varying the voltage to the tip rather than the amperage.
That is what I get for assuming something. The voltage varied from zero to 3 volts.
The circuitry didn't seem to be to complex, but certainly out of the grasp of someone not familiar with this type of electronics and far more complex than what I described above.

All in all, I've been very pleased with the performance of my Detail Master and have had none of the issues that Nedra has brought up.

I'm out a here!

[Thomp]

brian,

Im planning incom tax return money for a new tool in my shop. till recently, i had determined i could benifit from a small bench top bandsaw, that could be upgraded later like delta...or grizzly

but now the pyrographic steps into play. and i think i could use it to detail my carvings.
Guess im just learning more than i need to know about a tool 'i might not ever need..'
I always wanted to try pyrographic art even when in boyscouts some 40 years ago and we had some projects, that resulted in some pretty good 2nd degree burnt fingers.
--
yes, my first thoughts were to build a hot wire pyrographic setup... from some plans that a collage kid had posted few years back.

I found the parts, 110 vac to 2 - 2.5 vt filiment transformers but only in the 1 throu 10 watt viriaty..
further investigation to increase othere higher watt output only increased the output voltage in the transformers i found to choose from. where you would have to use a 10 volt output transformer to get a 0 to 130 watt output on the nib. but the nib is built only to with stand 2-3vt
so i came to the conclusion the low voltage high output transformers are special built... probobally not available to the public.
unless you know the electricians jardon.

so i started looking at manufactures info on all the burners available.
all the burners output voltages are only from 2 to 3 volts. i knew i was headed for trouble... if i continued on that presuit. the build with my limited electrical knowledge.

i priced all the parts and for 10 watt under $25-$35.00 one could build a system.. easily with manufactures handle cord and nib. & house hold light dimmer switch. and a few 8 awg power cords..

now im just trying to find by compairing each product which unit would best provide me service instead of flopping down $200.00 for the best one for an experiment.

[brian bailey]

Thomp,

It wasn't my intention to get you to build one. I just wanted to show that there isn't much to them. I'm quite sure that someone that is a hobbiest in electronics would have no problem putting one together.

I don't believe that there is that much difference between brands other than a lot of hype.

So whatever brand you do decide on will most likely do just fine for you.

[Razertip]

Hi again. This type of discussion can be a bit tricky for me. Obviously I prefer our products, but I really don't want to sound like an infomercial for Razertip. Really! All of the other manufacturers make good products. All I want to do here is try to dispell a few myths and some mis-information about woodburning tools.
First, Brian: you are essentially right when you say there is not much to burning systems like ours and others, except until you actually go ahead and try making them. They are not low amperage, and they are all, to my knowledge, operating entirely with AC current. Dependable components that will withstand over 10 amps of current while still providing excellent electrical contact at only 2 volts (or less) are both hard to obtain and often expensive. In addition to that, we opted to add the extra level of integrity that CSA/UL safety certification offers, so in addition to the above criteria, all of our components must be CSA/UL approved. The control circuit was especially challenging - it needs to be able to provide a wide range of heat with delicate, repeatable control. I would describe our control circuit as "deceptively simple" in appearance, but I can assure you that the development of our circuit was anything but simple. The handpiece cord we use is not lamp cord - it is a specially made high-strand cable (much smaller and more flexible) that can handle the high amperage, and it's significantly more costly than the lamp-cord used by many other manufacturers (to be fair here - Optima uses a similar cable to ours). I would be the last person to try to talk you out of your Detail Master tool - it's a good piece of equipment. It, too is "deceptively simple" in appearance to someone who has never been involved in the manufacture of a woodburner. BTW - you can't buy parts at Radio Shack to build a power supply that will perform like a manufactured unit. You could build a power supply that will make your tips hot, but it won't perform like what you have now. Some of our most loyal and appreciative customers are those who have built their own power supply and later "upgraded" to one of ours. And I haven't even touched on pen design - our recently re-designed standard pen required far more money and time to develop than I would have ever imagined; you simply could not build one of like quality on your own. You are right when you say that whatever brand Thomp decides on will serve him just fine.
Thomp: I wish we had robots to make our tips! (my production staff seems to get a bit cranky if I refer to them as robots). As far as I know, we (Razertip) are the only ones in the industry using laser-welding in production. Laser-welding assures that there are no heat-stressed zones to cause fracturing of the tip wire - a relatively common problem when tips are heat-soldered in. All of our tips are essentially hand-made, using jigs, special dies, and various shop-made devices, and involve quite an elaborate process that varies from one tip style to another. Some of our tip-production steps are protected as "trade-secrets", and it is because of these special steps that we are able to offer the type of warranty that we do. We do use a very specific Nichrome-based alloy (there are hundreds of different nichrome-based alloys made). The alloy that Detail Master uses on their tips is not a nichrome alloy - it contains no nickel. It's stiffer and it needs more power to heat than nichrome alloy, but it gets the job done. Our Nichrome alloy has a very specific factory temper when we buy it (we buy it pre-tempered), and it holds its temper right up to 1700 degrees F. Above that it begins to anneal. Annealing the tip would make it weak and easily bent, so you definitely don't want to anneal it. Just plug it in and go. BTW - when a Razertip burner is set to its maximum temperature the tip will remain below 1700 degrees, so you can't easily damage a Razertip tip on a Razertip power supply (you also couldn't anneal it). As for why Detail Master tells you to anneal their tips, I cannot speak for them, but I can speculate, based on conversations I have had with several former-users of Detail Master pens. In my opinion their so-called annealing process is a waste of time. I still recommend that you go through the process as they advise, because Detail Master will not warranty their tips if you haven't "annealed" your new tip and it fractures. Unfortunately, based on the experience of several of our customers who used Detail Master pens, the appearance was that Detail Master could have been hiding behind their annealing process to escape honoring a warranty (i.e. "the reason why your tip broke. sir, is that you didn't anneal it properly, so the warranty doesn't apply). I know of at least two people who followed Detail Master's instructions to the letter and, when the tip broke, were denied warranty for the above reason. If the tip doesn't break, you don't have a problem. Fortunately, most of their tips stay together - it appears that only a small percentage actually break.
I guess this undustry is like all others - if your woodburner/pen/tip is working well, you will be happy with it. It's only when you have problems that you discover what the manufacturer is really made of.
I really appreciate the opportunity to post here.
One final thing - this forum is great, but I think everybody should turn off their computer right now and head into the shop to do a little burning (or carving). That's where I'm headed tonight!
Cam Merkle

[Thomp]

i agree with razortip in this notion

One final thing - this forum is great, but I think everybody should turn off their computer right now and head into the shop to do a little burning (or carving). That's where I'm headed tonight!

and digest all the information that is swimming around in my brain.......

Which tool? the one i begain carvings with or the one that will help me finish them better? 50/50 please.....

thomp