Toxic materials ?!?

[Irish]

I was reading one of the threads posted recently and saw a note about using masking tape on a wood burning. Now this is a technique I use and after a few moments thought I decided that perhaps a thread on toxic materials might be worthwhile.

Now -The Standard Disclaimer - I am not a chemist. I'm an artist, woodcarver and wood burner.

Wood burners have been used for quite some time in other areas of arts and crafts beyond what we do. A major manufacturer, Walnut Hallow, includes in their basic kit a tip made specifically for burning acetate and mylar sheets for quilting. You place the mylar over a quilt stitching pattern then burn following the patterns lines. When the mylar is completed the quilter can lay the sheet over their fabric and run a well sharpened pencil in the burn troughs.

They also sell a tip made to cut stencils from the same material. In this case areas are burned free of the mylar or acetate so that the painter can use them.

Both are forms of plastic and I expect - again I do not claim expertise in chemistry - that they do give off some plastic fumes when burnt.

I also burn on watercolor paper. The process of creating paper is filled, literally, with huge vats of chemicals. Some whiten the paper, some soften the paper, some remove the acid (acid free) and some neutralize the acid (acid safe). There is a lot more inside your sheet of paper than wood or grass pulp! And let's add in the binder agents. Many of those chemicals remain in your paper forever.

I prefer rag content paper which means there can be cotton and wool fibers added and who knows what chemical baths they went through before they ended up in a roll of paper.

Plywood is a common wood burning surface. If you are burning on any plywood that is 1/4" in total thickness you are only one burn away from the glue substate that is used to whole the layers together. My favoirite, 1/8" birch often has a core board center layer and I have no idea what it is material is used for it.

Anytime we burn veneers or plywood we are burning into the adhesive layer that lie just a 1/16" below the surface.

So ... back to masking tape ... Masking tape is a paper crepe with an adhesive backing. We are talking about the same paper process as above and the same basic adhesives as might be in plywoods and veneers.

I use the tape to mark off the outside boundries of a design when I want a perfectly straight edge or ending. I don't burn so hot as to burn through that tape ... usually on lower setting ... because if I do burn through it I have defeated it purpose.

Masking tape, for me, is perfect when I want a little and medium doodle stroked cluster of leaves on a background tree and I want a straight edge. I can set the temp to a medium-low setting and just doodle away, working the doodles right over the tape. When I am done I can remove the tape and have a pristine clean edge to the pattern.

I know that we must be observant of what materials and chemicals we do and don't burn. But I also believe that we must also keep it in proportion. I believe, my own opinion here, that I run more risk of toxic fumes from burning any plywood or veneer surface or from burning any paper surface than I have from burning along a masking tape edge.

Just my ideas and I would truly like to hear what you do and don't burn and why.

Thanks, Susan

[Ron T]

Hi Susan, since I'm new to burning, I appreciate any concerns regarding toxic materials being posted. I used to sand and do some power carving without a mask. When I realized I was coughing a lot, and after finding out how toxic wood dust is, I always wear a mask. Well, almost always. If it's just a light sanding, I might not.

I have a question. Can toxic materials be power carved, sanded and/or burned if done outside and a fan is turned on and directed away from me so I wouldn't be inhaling any dust or fumes?

[Irish]

Ron, that is not something that I would ever suggest any crafter doing!

I would never trust that even with a fan that you might not accidentally fumigate yourself.

So, way back when I was doing a lot of sign painting and truck lettering as a way to make a living. So, I had gotten a contract to do all of the 4' x 8' advertising billboards for a local children's football league.

I had sign painted/truck lettered for about 4 or 5 years by then and talk about a toxic craft ... everything has lacquer thinners, leads, cadmiums ... I don't know wha-all but every label had a big red x or skull and cross bones on it.

And I took precautions with a fan when I couldn't paint outside, plastic gloves, clean your hands often, don't ever put the end of your brush in your mouth.

So, it was a hot summer day, I had to paint inside the studio to keep the gnats from adhering to the wet paint and I had my fan going full blast. I had gotten most of the sign done and was sitting on the floor painting the bottom 1' area. It was a couple of hours before I started to pack up for the day.

So, I say to my ankle warmer (a jack russell named PeeWee) that it was time to go home. She got up from where she had laid beside me and did this stumble fall down drunk walk towards the door! AH! I have fumigated my dog!

So, I grab her up and wobble up to the house where Mike called the vet for an emergency appointment. I still had wet paint on my fingers as we entered the vet's office.

He read me the riot act!!!!!! No just because of my dog but because I was just as stumble fall down drunk as she was. He just about called the ambulance on me.

It turned out, after he calmed down enough to explain to me what a stupid thing I had done, that even with that wonderful fan the fumes from lacquer thinner are heavier than air. So when I decided to sit on the floor to paint I sat myself and my PeeWee right into a cloud of toxic fumes.

I would not be one to ever suggest that you burn anything that you in any way think might be toxic!

Susan

[squbrigg]

You raise a great point Susan. If we knew what were in many of the materials we use, for many everyday products, we would probably lock ourselves away in a cave and never come out. No wonder cancer is so much of a problem. But we can take some common sense precautions, with ventilation being the most effective. Pulling those fumes away from you and venting them before they can reach your respiratory system is simple, easy and cheap.

Paper is full of chemicals, and dye's. Whether bleached or un-bleached, kraft, groundwood or acid free, they all go through processes that would make you shudder. I like to burn just on natural solid wood. Seldom plywood, or paper, and never on wood that has been treated or finished. You can do it and do it safely, but to do so you need more protection and then it is still a risk. The chemicals that you are releasing by heat are just too risky and enter directly into your bloodstream through the lungs. I've worked for many years in pulp and paper mills, as a Safety & Security Co-ordinator and know what many of those chemicals are and just how hazerdous they are. I've seen first hand what some of them can do, and it isn't pretty.

Bob

[CarverFromNoWhere]

I turn and sand many highly toxic and caustic woods along with spalted woods all stuff you do not want to breathe in or really get onto your skin, not to mention plastic and acrylic pens. Best thing is to just wear a respirator, if ya have adust collector that will also help.
Carl

[Ron T]

Thanks, Susan. I won't do it.

[Lindy]

We used to have a sign company where we did silk screening and we worked from our house. When you're dealing with screen printing you are dealing with toxic products from start to finish and the fumes are beyond description. We set it up so that we only used one room for the printing and installed huge fans in the room to try and keep it ventilated. It helped but we never really got rid of the fumes. And yes those fumes can be quite "intoxicating" at times, depending on the chemical you are using.

As for what we need to be cautious of when we're burning and what we simply should not be burning through - it really does come down to common sense and assessed risk factors. Susan you make a wonderful point about burning on paper - it is processed and chemicals are used in that processing. I like your idea on the masking tape, I can only imagine what those borders would be like. I used to use a similar technique in my oil painting and now, as usual you've intrigued me into trying another technique with my burning.



Personally the following is a list of what I will not burn on and what I will burn cautiously:

• Varthane - NOT
• Oil Finishes - NOT
• Briwax Wax finishes - NOT
• Water Colour Paints - Catiously
• Acryclic Paints - Very Cautiously & Only if I feel it is absolutely necessary
• Oil Paints - Never
• Treated Wood - NOT

There are probably others that I can't think of right now.

Susan great thread -thank you for starting it.

[Pyrographer]

The comments regarding not burning on glue or plastics were posted by me and based on conversations I had with manufacturers of the materials. The conversations were initiated after an instructor in Texas was teaching students to burn on acrylic mirrors in a large building with lots of other classes going on. The fumes were horrible and she assured everyone it was safe. Everyone in class was gagging loved the effect created which was very interesting.

Hubby was there taking a carving class. I'm not expert but hubby is an engineer and he said no way was I burning on plastic. Anyway, I like to check things out before I make decisions so I decided to contact experts, the manufacturers of the materials.

The first response I got from the company that made the plastics was... "Are you serious, you must be crazy?" The response from 3M was something similar.

So, while many people do it, personally (this is my own opinion) I still do not consider either one safe to burn on and like Lindy and others I do not burn on any finishes, paint, etc. I find there are so many things that are safe to burn on why push my luck.

I figure there are enough things in this world that can make me ill (and having ended up in the hospital for several days recently due to a problem caused by a prescription medication, you can be sure I'm even more cautious now) so why tempt fate?

I teach the same way I burn, safety first. My mantra is, burn on raw wood with no dyes, inks, stains, etc. No man-made materials such as plastics (in any form), glues, etc. When I used to burn on plywood, I burned very lightly ensuring not to burn into the glue. I've since stopped even burning on plywood now and reserve my burning for solid wood (and even then I am cautious about which ones) and thoroughly cleaned gourds. When I burn on gourds I do it outside or in hubby's shop with it vented outside if it's too cold or windy.

I took a class with a gourd instructor recently and it was outside. She taught the techniques burning through the masking tape deep into the gourd and the plastic and it was nasty, even outside with a nice breeze. And to make it worse she told people to burn deep into the gourd which was not even cleaned out very well (if you haven't worked on gourds, there are mold spores inside uncleaned gourds and you must really clean them well inside if you cut them open). I Will NEVER do that again and everyone in the class said the same thing after class was over. One lady knew what was coming and came with her own respirator....smart lady!

Even with proper precautions it can still cause problems to some people. So, even if it doesn't cause you a problem it MIGHT cause someone else a problem and it might not be immediate.

I had one former student in Montana who wanted to burn on red cedar and I gave him my spiel (? spelling) and he was upset because he had all this free wood. I gave him all the recommendations to try and told him I wasn't saying it was ok, just giving him some things to try to help. He did everything, including venting the fumes outdoors. He called me and told me that the following weekend his son came to visit and got so ill he ended up in the ER. The doctor said it was from burning the oils in the cedar. This guy said he couldn't smell anything so he felt safe and secure about having taken all the proper precautions and was so upset that he didn't heed my warnings and burned on it anyway just because it was free.

My husband having supervised major construction projects for the VA for over 25 years said the same thing happens in construction and in other industries where people work with chemicals, even with protection. You think you take proper precautions and sometimes it takes years but people still get sick from working with some materials.

So, while Susan might not be burning through the tape into the glue, those who are learning these techniques burning on gourds (and people are also using these techniques on wood and other materials now as well) ARE being taught to burn right through the tape and plastic and having tried it in this class I can honestly say it's nasty!

As Bob said it's not pretty when you've been exposed to some of those things. I worked in an Oncology ward for over 9 years and with Hospice patients for another 5 years and it surely was not a pretty sight.

So, like Bob, I'll stick to things that are a bit safer and take as many precautions as I can even with them.

Gotta run, heading to Texas in the morning!

Nedra

[Irish]

Nedra, I have read your response a few times to be sure that I did read all that you have to share. I do agree that there are problems inherent to wood burning and the surfaces that we burn in that some if not all release fumes during the burning process. I also totally believe in practicing safe burning techniques, being careful and considerate of what materials we use and always using ventalation ...

My concern here is that reading your post I really think that none of us should ever practice or indulge in the art of wood burning! Never - never- never. In fact, we should all be doing everything we can to stop this terrible dangerous craft from going one step further and destroying the health of even one more artist.

I mean it is so obvious that we all are going to die a terrible prolonged lung related death because of the fumes we are creating.

It's like wood carving, there is another craft that should be ban by Congress. I could tell you so many horror stories about it ...

There's the man who while carving in his workshop, alone and without a cell phone, slipped in a cut while using his wide straight chisel and mallet. He drove the chisel right through his inner thigh and severed the main artery in his leg. He bleed to death within a few minutes. His wife found him hours later, a pool of blood and bloody finger prints on the door handle where he had tried to struggle out of the shop, when he didn't come up to the house to go to bed.

Or how about the man who got distracted while using his band saw and literally cut off one half of his hand. Lost all of his fingers and half of his thumb. He only had an old oily, dirty dust rag to wrap the stump so by the time he got to the hospital he had not only lots of blood lose, a stump where his dominate hand had been but the whole mess would eventually become infected because of the rag. There was no way to reattach the finger part of his hand ... not because of the infection ... but because the band saw just ate it up into hamburger. They had to throw the band saw away because they couldn't get all the little bits of his hand out of the works.

Oh ... I have got to add here the guy who ended up paralized because he lost his grip on a large sheet of wood that he was passing through the table saw. The end strip, about 3" x 2" x 24", was thrown out of the saw, a kick back, and it was propelled right into his face. It snapped his neck.

Oh, yes! I do believe all of us need to stamp these two terribly unsafe crafts to death before they kill even one more person!!!!!! I am off to draw up a petiton to send to Congress.

Susan

(Did I say anything in my first posting about keeping this in proportion?)