[Jano]

Ya sure, much betta! Even xerox had its problems.....

And you clearly get what I'm saying, right? That woodcarvers should worry more about copying than copyright, as doing the first will take care of the second. Student work and personal enjoyment aside, of course. I don't know what i'd do if i couldn't follow along somebody else's carving!

In art shows, there is much attention paid to whether items submitted for competition are original (done from one's own photos) or not (copied from somebody else's source material, including but not limited to: photos, printed material, the web, television, classroom work, etc.) When it is obvious. such submissions are disqualified. There is no courtroom drama or even a hearing on how close was the copy; but rest assured that artist was so embarassed that they would never try it again. (Yes, this happend to me...!)Again, the disclaimer for one's own purposes -- nobody cares that you copied a hallmark card to make a present for your mother. It's just when you put it out there in public as your own, and it isn't. That's my peeve.

[brian bailey]

Originally Posted by Jano

An earlier poster made the point that after X years copyright runs out. This is correct, and you cannot be sued where there is no longer any copyright. The statement was also made that "there is no copyright on ideas" -- that is dead wrong. There most certainly is, and that is why there is intellectual property law.

Jano, I'm confused by your above statement.

According to the copyright law, Copyright Office Basics

"s, procedures, methods, systems, processes, concepts, principles, discoveries, or devices, as distinguished from a description, explanation, or illustration" are generally not protected by copyright.

If so, how can these instances be protected by Intellectual Property law?

Just curious.

[Jano]

Again with the disclaimer -- I was a trial and not a copyright lawyer. Having said that, I believe that ideas do indeed fall under copyright law WHEN they are more than just a thought you've had and are specific, unique, quantifiable and so on. This is as opposed to generally accepted proceedures, descriptions, etc. which are nothing more than word pictures of something everybody knows/ posesses etc.

I guess that's not very clear; for me it's more of a 'I can't describe it but I know it when I see it" kind of a thing....most of my limited experience in this area involved disputes between two parties who each claimed copyright, so it was a matter of proving who actually filed first (see previous post by Irish) and that on which they filed. This means that things tend to get decided on a case by case basis, depending on the unique circumstances of each.

For our purposes, the subject of copyright gets raised mostly by the disgruntled person who feels their work has been copied, or else by an instructor who admonishes students to behave ethically when exhibiting their work. Will there be lawsuits which will tell us exactly where the boundaries are in these circumstances? Doubtful -- but you can be sure something like it has been raised in the past. It's TMI for me.

[brian bailey]

Thanks for your response, Jano.

I'm not a lawyer, so I can only go by what I read or hear.

It was your statement that "ideas" are copyrightable under the IP law that seems to be in conflict with what the Copyright Office says.

These issues are of great interest to me because as an artist / craftsman I need to know when not to step over the line in designing my work.

It has been my understanding that copyright, patent, trademark, and etc. all fall under the Intellectual Property Laws.

Thanks, Brian...

[Irish]

Brian ... You are right that they do. But what concerns us as artists/wood carvers are the laws that specifically deal with Visual Arts.

My Dad was a mechanical engineer and owned a patent (the equivalent to a copyright) for a door opening system. Because it was mechanical he did not need to have an actual wood-metal-plastic version of the system to file. He did have to file detailed spec-accurate drawings and descriptions to the system.

Since his system was mechanical his description included things like already existing and patented screws, glues and plywood! So it was the new "idea", concept or assembly of already available parts that he was able to register.

As an artist I don't think I can get a copyright by submitting a written statement, no matter how detailed, on a possible wood carving or painting. I have to actually do the carving or paint the paint or sketch the drawing then apply.

So wording, definitions and requirements can change depending on what type of copyright, trademark or patent you need for your original work.

If you are that far into needing to understand copyright laws as it applies to Visual Arts it's time to talk with a Copyright Lawyer!

Susan

[brian bailey]

Hi Susan,

I believe that Visual Arts as relating to artist / carvers are covered under the copyright law. See number 5 at the below link.

Copyright Office Basics

Regarding your father's door open system, patents and copyright are different. See below link.

U.S. Copyright Office - Copyright in General (FAQ)


Your right on about the wording, definitions, and etc. about this subject. I understand the differences involved and I guess that is why I find this topic so interesting and perplexing at the same time.

Again, I'm not a lawyer so maybe I'm reading to much or to little into what the U.S. Copyright Office has posted on their website.

But as an artist / craftsman using my own designs, I definately want to be aware of the laws so that no one attempts to pull the wool over my eyes!

Brian...

[Irish]

Originally Posted by brian bailey

Your right on about the wording, definitions, and etc. about this subject. I understand the differences involved and I guess that is why I find this topic so interesting and perplexing at the same time.
Brian...

Big Grin!!!!!

I so agree ... and I think that they were intentionally written that way ... 'nother big grin.

There are two purposes to the Copyright Laws here in the States. One is to protect original art from being stolen or copied illegally. This is the one most often discussed.

The other which is just as important, perhaps more, is to protect and encourage the creation of works of art and new artists.

It is just as important to protect an new artist/artwork from another artist with an existing copyright using their copyright as a blanket denial to any new works that might threaten the sales potential of their art. Having a copyright on one design does not give that artist a monopoly to that subject, theme or composition arrangement in any manner.

Which is why I can't copyright 'all deer carvings' just because I carved one original deer. That is just as unfair, unjust and down right nasty as stealing your deer design since it would stop other artists from creating new works.

So the laws are worded loosely enough that they protect you and your art yet encourage me and my art and still make lots of room for more artists.

Susan

[brian bailey]

Well said, Susan! I can not agree more!

[chessmkr1]

This may be off on a tangent, but in today's 'global economy', world wide web, information 'super-highway' mentality...copyright infringement is way more prevalent than you might think. US Copyright laws mean absolutely nothing in foreign countries, especially in Southeast Asia. If you post something (anything) for sale on the internet as an artist, do not be surprised to see a knock-off for sale on ebay shortly thereafter, and ebay won't give a damn about what you have to say about copyright laws and 'your' designs...that is if you can even understand the kind of English ebay customer reps speak in the first place.

If you don't want your designs stolen and sold behind your back, be careful up front about where you post, when doing a carving show ASK that guy with the camera phone what he's going to do the picture of YOUR work he's taking. ASK website administrators how your images will be used (shared) by others, if they are able to be copied. Don't list dimensions unless you have to. Make sure you know who you are talking to when discussing techniques. You have to be pro-active.

If you are actively selling your art on the internet, you almost have to accept the fact that theft of your ideas and designs is GOING to happen sooner or later. Unless you have the vast stores of resources necessary for litigation (on a global scale), YOU are your only source of protection.

Jim

[Irish]

Jim,

If someone is determined to steal they are going to steal ... but there are a few things you can do to deter them and protect yourself.

This is a "In My Opinion" statement here ... and here are a few suggestions!!!!

1. Keep a copy of the original image file somewhere in your computer. That file has a time stamp attached to it that shows when you create it. Make a copy of that file for publishing to the net. If there are problems later on you have proof that your file came before the theft.

2. Disable your images by adding lettering right on top of that image in some area that hurts the image if it is cropped out. The wording does not have to be big, bold or in your face but if it is in a location that cuts part of a dog's ear off when removed ... It makes the cropped image worthless to the thief.

3. Your web pages and images should carry the written copyright statement which is: © Copyright, Name, Year, All Rights Reserved The All Rights Reserved is for international. Also post a Statement of Copyright Policy somewhere on your website which clearly states what they can and can not do with your website info, images and product.

4. Slice your images into lots of little images then post them in a table that has no padding. That way, at least, the thief has to work for their stolen bootie.

Now if you find that your work/image have been stolen get the web address, any information about ownership and take screen shots that show your art on their page. Make a notepad file. Add to that file where your original image can be found on your website. Add to the file the date stamp of when you created that image file and when you published that image to the net - that shows prior ownership.

Most ... 98% ... of web hosting services have Copyright Violation/Abuse contacts. Find out who hosts them, follow the directions and email the host. Mike NEVER bothers to contact the website owner that stole the image.

We go through the host, including Ebay. The reasons are simple. The website owner already knows they stole from us so their only response will be "How Rude!" If they cared about Copyright they would not have stolen in the first place. The hosting service, on the other hand, will respond because they do not want to be the ones sued because they ignored a copyright violation notice ... You can't get them because of what the website owner posted but you can get them for not taking action when told about it.

With Ebay you need to download their PDF file, make a hard copy, hand sign the copy and fax it back to them. One violation they will remove the item for their listings. More then one they will remove the seller. Of course, there is no way they can prevent that seller from just coming back in under a new email address.

Foreign web hosting services respond just as fast as American ... if you can find their Copyright Violation email they only need to follow the links between the two sites to see what is happening.

(Oh Susan, you really did make a New Year's Resolution against epic postings ... sigh!)

My last piece of advice here and a little commentary ... Follow up on every copyright violation that you find - EVERY ONE! Because what you want to do is not only take care of that little matter but earn a reputation of being the hardest, meanest, nastiest ,unforgiving B---- /B------ on the net when it comes to protecting yourself, your art and your website.

So we take the site down through the host with no notification (they didn't notify us that they were going to steal from us), we listen to no excuses (there simply are none to listen to) and we give no prior warning (so that they can sneak away to another website)!

As I have posted here before we DO keep a Copyright Attorney on retainer and we have used him many times ( and every dollar spent with him was well worth it!!!!!!!!)


Susan

Script .... And, yes, you are right Jim! All of this does little to protect any artist from Nations that encourage and support and even facilitate copyright thief as a means to increase the countries economic power and dominance.