[dhowell9000]

Ok, I was completely blown away by the fact that if you took a similar picture (ref. of ansel adams) that you would possibly be breaking a copyright law. I am really glad that this is posted here because I also sculpt, and was wondering about this.If I sculpt a figure and I dont copyright it (as I was told this can be expensive and I am very fund limited) then can someone create one just like mine and I can still get in trouble? and if I sculpt a dog from my inagination, or memory, and it happens to look like something else that someone did, I can still get in trouble? This is making me kinda wary about creating any form of art. how can it be so strict? How does one get past all that? I have been to www.carvingpatterns.com and they actually say that you can create and sell your work from these patterns, which is a good thing, but I also draw and paint, and am concerned that this may someday be a scary thing. I have not sold even one thing yet, but if I do and am somehow breaking the law, even if it is my own work (imagination) I dont know if I can do this... Wow...

[Lindy]

Thanks everyone for helping clarify this in my mind.

What I would like to add, and remember I'm in Canada so it could be different elsewhere, is that there is an in-expensive way to prove copyright without going through a lawyer. When you have completed your "original" piece, something you've designed and not copied from someone else, thn take a dated photograph of it, print the photo and then mail it to yourself. When the letter arrives don't open it as that letter will be stamped by the post office and can become your legal proof of your copyright should someone start challenging or outright using your work without your permission.

Copyrights are so important and I believe that it is essential that credit goes to the creator when using their work.

So thanks again for everyone's participation in this discussion, it's confirmed a lot for me and taught me a whole bunch more.

Lindy

[Ashbys]

There are reasons to go through the process of registering your copyright work. The first and foremost is it provides better protection. The second is simple, money.

If you take someone to court on copyright infringement , if it is not registered you are only intitled to direct damages. Meaning you can recover the fee from every piece the person who took the rights made from it, and any real proof of any lost sales which effected you.

If it is registered , you have the right to damages, cost of litigation, and deemed damages. Which is roughly 3 times damages. Although it may not seem like much , but let say you sell a copyrighted carving , for 2000.00, it is stolen by joe china, who produces it in resin , and wood , but is no where near the quality you expect your work to be. You are intitled to , All monies joe china made off the resins, all monies from the wood copies, and damages of lost sales that you may have made as well as damages to your reputation.

But the catch is , you must activly protect your copyright, from any know abuse. You may go for years without any effect of using someone elses work , but if your caught it is considered as a fraud case and allows them to go back years in settlements.

[Dangee's Pyrography]

Susan, I just want to thank you for your invaluable explainations with regards to copyright. It is a subject that everyone should know about...both beginners and those with experience. "Keep burning and learning"...Danette

[Irish]

As Garry noted it is not expensive to register a Copyright with the Library of Congress. They have on-line instructions and forms that you fill out and mail. Usually they also require three photos or hard copies of the artwork with the registration as well as a small fee. The last time I checked, a few years ago, the fee was around $15 to $25 per artwork.

That's very cheap insurance.

What is expensive is hiring a Copyright lawyer because they are such a specialized field. They are well worth the investment though if you are copyrighting multiple items; series; publications that include text, patterns and images or collections of work. They are also great if the artwork will have a high market value. We hire one because one of my limited edition print runs that retails at $50 each and is a run of 500 prints = $25000 over it's life time possibility.

My understanding is that violations can cost you up to the $150,000 per infraction ... visit www.EmbroideryProtection.org for more detail.

That's the awful end of copyright but here's the good end ...

Copyright laws are NOT meant to stifle, limit or constrict new art or new artists. It is simply meant to protect those same artists when they create something original. I would estimate that 90% of those that infringe on copyright knew that was exactly what they were doing when they did it!!!!! Creating something that is similar is not illegal, immoral nor does it smell bad. Lots of original art is in someway similar to other pieces of original art.

No one has a copyright on all 3-d cowboy dude carvings. They can only get a copyright on THEIR 3-d dude carving and only if there is enough original work in it.

Example, if you see a wonderful 3-D cowboy dude that you really really like and copy it for your own fun and it will only be displayed within your home - no problem! This is where copyright law allows you to use artwork for your own personal learning and skill development.

If you see a wonderful 3-d cowboy dude and love the pose but want him as a fireman as long as you do not exactly copy his face or jacket or boots but instead use him as a guide and idea for your fireman you have created a new carving - no problem! This is where copyright law allows you to see something and use that idea as the start of a new piece of art.

If you see a wonderful 3-d dude and decide he would be a perfect addition to your teaching lessons or carving sales and you exactly copy him because he is so great - Problems!!!! In this sample you KNOW you are copying someone's work and you are also distributing that work beyond your personal use ... selling it either as a pattern or tangibly carved item.

dHowell9000 - Mike's and my copyright (www.CarvingPatterns.com) does indeed allow you to make and sell copies of your carvings as long as you are in the hobbyist or craftsman's status. So, please, carve you heart away and we hope they sell like hot cakes for you What we do restrict is mass or manufactured production so once you think about cranking copies out by the hundreds you are a manufacturer and need to request a licensing agreement with us. So, please don't sweat it until you finish number 99 ... Big Grin!

Lora S. (Susan) Irish

[mdallensr]

Thank you Susan and Garry. This is one more thread that we should preserve for others and the future. Great information and advice. BTW Susan, I started carving your "Vineyard Delight" this week. I love your patterns! Mike

[Lindy]

Susan, thank you for taking the time to answer this in such detail. You may not be a copyright lawyer, but your personal experience with copyrights is really helpful to those of us who are just starting up. I did not realize for instance that you do allow us to sell things we make using one of your patterns, I had always thought that we could only use them for personal use, not to sell. I think that is really quite generous of you and I for one do appreciate it. Now I can maybe sell some flower burnings which I have not been willing to offer before now.

I also didn't realize that the actual copyright is as inexpensive as it is - that's good news. I personally am working towards developing my leather burning into a saleable and marketable product so now that I know how inexpensive the copyrights are for the designs I do create from my own creativity (yes I am getting back into drawing which has been a long lost art/ability for me), then it definately makes it worthwhile to do it the right way. So thank you for that information.

Regards,
Lindy

[louis]

As far as I am concerned Doris and Irish are correct. The only point I would like to make is search your own concience. There can be no fun in claiming someone else's original idea as your own, afterall ideas don't come easy.
Louis

[Jano]

OK, so here's my disclaimer -- I WAS a lawyer but not copyright, and I am now a professional artist (painter and sculptor). I am only a baby woodcarver, however........after reading this thread, I am struck by two things:

1. Irish has it right on the whole official take on copright. Good advice.
2. The real issue here is what you intend to do with the piece in question.

Ihave long noticed a tendency in the world of woodcarving to copy other's works, either to try to reproduce as accurately as possible or to put a little twist on it and pretend it's original. If you consider yourself a student or are doing this for your own enjoyment and, when asked, acknowledge that you have worked from someone else's work -- then what's the problem? Haven't we all seen ad nauseum the mountain man, the noble Indian, the hillbilly? There is much more of this going on than there is "original' work.

The problems occur when one carves such items and presents ("publishes") them to others as original, or even seeks to make money from doing so. It is at this point that the 'infringement' on somebody else's rights occur. It is a form of theft, of stealing somebody else's idea or work product, no matter what form it is in, 2D or 3D or whatever. I'm not entirely certain on this, but the legal standard would be whether the alleged infringer has substantially appropriated the originator's work.

What does that mean? Well, if you've done such things as changed a color or two, made it face the other way, taken a 2D image and made it 3D, put a wig on it-- to my mind, that's really not changing it, that's attempting to camouflage your theft. If you're going to go to that much trouble, why not put the effort into trying out some ideas that are your own? Is the goal you're after to be able to say you made a really really good copy? Then call a spade a spade. Just don't call it your own.

An earlier poster made the point that after X years copyright runs out. This is correct, and you cannot be sued where there is no longer any copyright. The statement was also made that "there is no copyright on ideas" -- that is dead wrong. There most certainly is, and that is why there is intellectual property law.

But this isn't really about being legal or worried about being sued, is it? Aren't we really talking about artistic ethics? It seems simple enough. If you're going to use somebody else's source material, give credit where it is due. Don't claim somebody else's work product as your own. If you were the originator of the next big thing how would you like it if 500 other people took credit for it?

Just my opinion. Sorry for the rant; this has long been a topic of interest for me, why woodcarvers so easily seem to take ownership of forms they have not originated.

[Irish]

Jano ... ! ... Having a professional look into copyright within the wood carving community really makes a difference for us who are not in the legal field.

OK ... I'm the one that said "So, yes, you can not copyright an idea. So thinking that you want to burn a barn scene can not be copyrighted. But once that idea is in tangible form (paper, wood, paint or digital format) in any way it is no longer an idea it's a Copyright piece of original artwork by another artist!!!!"

So often in these types of discussions someone posts "Well, if an artist gets a copyright on a carving of a deer in front of the fence surrounding a corn field that means they are the ONLY ONES who can make carvings of any deer, any fences and any corn fields?" It's the old question where the questioner takes the copyright laws to the extreme.

I, obviously was not very clear here ... my apologizes ... perhaps the wording of "idea-ideas" was incorrect.

It is my understanding that as an artist I can not copyright a general subject ... all deer - all fences - all barns - or even all barn scenes that include a deer, fence, barn and cornfield. That general grouping of subjects is not copyrightable ... it's my version, composition and execution of that grouping that is. My one deer drawing/pattern/carving, if original, does not give me claim to any/all deer drawings that may follow.

Jano ... is that any better ?????

Susan Irish