[underwood]

Hello everyone,

First I'd like to say this seems like a great community and I want to say great job to everyone on all the inspiring pieces that I've seen here!

So, my name is Trevor. I live in the Seattle area and I havent carved a lick. I am interested in doing mostly relief carving maybe around 6x9, 9x12 (I dont know what size the wood actually comes in)

I've looked over the forums and tried to search out my questions but feel I could benefit from a bit more personalized answer that I'm hoping you guys and gals would be willing to give?

1)Since I'm interested in relief carving I dont know how big of gouges I should be seriously looking at. Not so much asking what sizes to get as in mm and sweeps but palm vs. larger mallet style gouges. I have checked out Little Shavers and I know that many here have high opinions of them but I'm not sure if their beginner set is too small for the work I'm interested in. I have also looked at the PFEIL set "c" at Woodcraft Supply that Rick suggested to someone else and it looks good.

2)If there are any relief carvers that could suggest how many gouges, and what sizes/#sweep I really need to get started that would be terrific I dont want to break the bank buying more then I need.

Any opinions and help or links to pages that have gouges that you think I should take a look at would be a great help. Thanks for taking the time to read this long post and I look forward to sharing some of my work with you all in the future. (along with more than a few questions I'm sure too)

Thank you in advance and take care
Trevor

[squbrigg]

Welcome aboard Trevor. You ask some good questions and I understand the reason for them.

First, wood comes in all sizes, they are called trees! Seriously though, you can find sources of wood that will provide just about any size you want and if you want larger, you can glue up several pieces to make one big piece.

Pfeil tools are excellent tools for relief carving, and come sharp as you need and hold an edge well. Any of those sets will work for you, doing relief. here's a list of what I use most often in relief carving:
#1 - 14mm
#3 - 14mm fishtail,
#5 - 14 mm "
#7 - 14 mm "
#1 - 6 mm
#3 - 6mm fishtail
#5 - 6mm "
#7 - 6mm "
#11 - 3mm ("U" tool)
#12 - 3mm ("V" tool)
I also find the 2al and 2ar handy in size 8mm (bent skew tools) and a # 3a - 8mm is useful.

Depending on the size of the scene carved, there could be larger or smaller tools as well, but I use these most. I like using fishtails, as you can see, no particular reason, but find them comfortable.

A good leather strop and compound is essential, Flexcut makes a great little kit that is useful and reasonable. Good luck with your venture into carving, it's a whole new world that you can enjoy.

Bob

[AlArchie]

That's a pretty good list of tools for relief carving. But for beginners who don't want to invest a whole buncha dollars, I'd suggest you start with a good quality bench knife for stop cuts, and one 25mm (one inch) or 30mm #3 0r #5 sweep gouge. A fishtail one in either of these sizes would help cleaning corners and on light undercuts. A complete shallow relief can be finished with just these few tools. A Flexcut bench knife is great for this as it is sharp and thin....works well for those beginning cuts in relief.

As you progress to somewhat deeper work, you can pick up some more of the tools mentioned.

I'd also recomend you pick up a good book on relief carving. L.S. Irish has several out there with recomendations on tools for each type. www.carvingpatterns.com

You might also try contacting Fred and Elaine Stenman www.stenmanstudios.com the teach a style of low relief that is easy to get started in, and have many patterns available (mostly wildlife and country scenes)

Here's a shallow relief I finished last fall from one of Stenman's seminars. It was done with two full size gouges, a 25mm #5 and a 30mm #3, a bench knife and two gouges from a set similar to that offered by Little Shavers beginners kit. It was also enhanced a bit with woodburning for line definition, but that could have also bee done with that small "V" gouge in the beginners kit. If I eliminated the knot hole in the tree and the deeper gouges in the roadway, the whole thing could have been done with just the bench knife and the two gouges......maybe even one gouge, the 30mm #3.


Al

[mark yundt]

Hello Trevor. Bob Squbrigg has suggested a well rounded selection of tools.Initially your budget will dictate how many and what tools you select.I also believe he is correct in using full size chisels. Fishtails are wonderful,,and I like using them as does he,,but as you are learning to carve,,as well as sharpen your tools,,they might not offer as much of a learning curve as a bit too much time on a stone and the benefits and sweep of a fishtail can be lost pretty quickly.Though they generally are a bit pricier,they do work well ,though conventional shapes do work also.
Though this topic of tool selection has come up often, the opinions will vary widely and for a variety of reasons. So and so are great people to deal with to this "starter" set is cheap and you get alot of tools,and you 'gotta have this particular knife,are all well and good.I think a good question ( as yours is) and a good answer to it would have to include WHY particular chisels are favored and considered a good choice to a new carver and are those reasons really valid.
Everyone seems to have their pet tool,,the gotta have,,the one they use a majority of the time.Out of familiarity grow contentment. Is there another tool to use that would do the job better,faster,cleaner,more powerfully or accurately and cover the broadest range of carvings?Is the work being done indicative of the tool or the carver? What if ,in the right hands as another post indicates (observing a carver) ,the tools were used as intended,,where and how would a carving end up looking.
I don't intend to cloud a topic,,especially when you are starting out and really aren't quite sure where to go and what to get.In my opinion the direction you seem to be going is good. I personally like full size chisels.They are more controllable,more powerful,,and can do anything a small chisel can do.There is very little truth to small carvings=small tools,,big carvings=big tools. A compact car is O.K. for hopping around town,,but a full size car can take you anywhere you want to go with room,comfort and power to spare without struggle.Palms can't do everything a full size chisel can do.The upfront costs are more,,you might not wish to spend that much,,or you might loose interest over time. But if you do plan to stay in the game,,I ( and Bob) feel it's the way to go.

[underwood]

Originally Posted by AlArchie

A Flexcut bench knife is great for this as it is sharp and thin....works well for those beginning cuts in relief.
Al

I have a question about Bench knives is this a term that is used loosely? Are any if these bench knives? If so which one/s.

Thank you all for the replies it is very helpful

[AlArchie]

"Bench Knife" is a pretty generic term that describes most any knife with a fixed blade about 1" t0 1 1/2" long, straight on the cutting edge with an end rounded toward the top. They are also known as "roughing" knives in the larger sizes and may be called "detail" knives in the smaller sizes. Just looking at that collection of Flexcuts, I'd say B, C, and F would commonly be called bench knives.The smaller D would be a detail knife, A and E chip carving knives, and F a "pellican" blade.

For doing relief work a knife such as B or C would be my choice.......small enough to handle easily. F would be my choice for general carving.

Flexcuts are only one brand of knife that fits this "Bench Knife" term. The standard "Murphy" knife is another common one, but there are literally dozens out there that fill the bill.

I only sugested Flexcut because it's easily found, comes really sharp, and though it holds it's edge it is easily resharpened. don't consider that a commercial recomendation...there are others outh there just as good!

Al

Al

[doris]

hmmm ... if i would ever suggest tools, i would suggest buy only 2 or 3, i think brand is not important, in the beginning. carve with them, and you learn which tools you really want. every person is different, and, actually, most of the carving can be done with 2 or 3 chisels only, well i do at least ...

i carved with knives in my first days of carving, i would no longer recommend them, since to me, they offer much less control than a full size chisel. a full size chisel you control with both hands, you are able to do so fine movements, i doubt you can achieve with a knife... same reasoneing, i would not recommend palm tools either. instead, think early how to fix your carving, so you have both hands free to guide your chisel the way YOU want ... of course, this is just my opinion. as noted already, every one favours something different. i just want you get aware of trying YOURSELF a very few chisels, see how they work, what they do, and then decide on your own experience what you like and need to buy further...

[mark yundt]

I think you have the right idea Doris,,and your carvings show.As I 'm sure most of us did,,I too started "whittlin" with a knife.When I got serious and wanted to actually carve something ,out went the knives,as you did as well.Personally, for anyone visiting my shop,,interested in carving,,I have never recommended using a knife,(or palms) nor would I consider using one myself once you see just what can be done with a chisel,the accuracy and control they offer as you indicate can be amazing.And at the same time you need less strength to do more work with better control and finesse.

Carvings I'm asked to look at invariably show what happens when using a knife for stop cuts and the like.When I demonstrate how to do the cut properly,cleanly and efficiently the response is usually something like " Oh man,, that's so much easier and cleaner"....out go the knives,,and the palm chisels as well.People it seems to me have a feeling like the palms are small,,controllable,,they don't want to do big carvings,just little ones and palms are a way to sort of test the waters and get a "feel" for carving ,,just play around a bit,,nothing serious,,I don't need "mallet" tools.
I think it's a mistake from the get-go.The people I meet are generally frustrated,,the cuts don't go well,,and the carvings show it.Erratic cuts,,odd gouge marks,,fuzzies,,splinters,,stop cuts that tend to wander or overlap then they try to clean them up using the same tools that caused it,or sand it all out.The list goes on and on.I do believe most of the problems found in carvings (as far as cuts go ) can be traced to the tools used. The wrong ones for the job.Don't hinder yourself trying to poke,prod ,pry or wiggle the wood away,,,carve it away cleanly with positive powerfull cuts.Anything less causes frustration of some sort.

[underwood]

Just an update. I went to Woodcraft and picked up 3 Pfeil gouges.
1 #7 14mm bent
1 #3 5mm
1 #11 2mm

I'm not sure if I got the best selection I could have, a bit of buyers remorse I guess. Does anyone have a suggestion about what would be a good next gouge or if I should take one of these back and get a different size/sweep?

By the way I nearly shaved the skin off my knuckle. It actually spurted I grabbed it quick and my wife got me bandaged up good. Gotta love her she didnt even make a comment about my great new idea of taking up carving.
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Trevor