Sharpening? Which stones? How?

bcarvings · #1 10-02-2004, 07:41 PM

Hi,
I was considering going to powercarving because I can't get my knife sharp! I tried sharpening my knife on a generic coarse stone, then a generic medium, then a leather strop.
All of which I got for under $10. Except for the strop was given to me by my grandfather. I used all of them following the book 'How to carve wood' insutrction's, and sharpened my blade until there was nothing left! literlly! Then I tried sharpening my boyscout knife on my $60 delta grider, then stropped it. Still serious resluts. I cannot get the knife sharp enough to cut the wood easily. Not even near easy!

My question is what are the best stones to buy? What brand? Also I want those same stones to sharpen gauges, and v-tools. Would be delta grinder be best? It has a white stone and a black stone which should I use first? Also Can I buy better stones for it, and what are the better stones called? ???

Oh, and I need a good knife, what is a good expensive knife I can get. I have a lot of money saved up but don't know what is good. I wanted to get the Butz knife from woodcraft but it is so cheap... Are the flexcut knives any good? What are they like compared to an x-acto. Also if I get a cheap knife couldn't I just keep sharpening it? ???

I know there are so many questions I'm throwing at you, but I really would like to carve again... The right way! I have already carved 4 mallard ducks, and they don't look that good... Also what do you think is a decent price for a peice of basswood, 4' x 4' x 12'? Thank you

#2 10-02-2004, 08:37 PM

4x4x12 under $8

Flexcut are good knives, I have two of them and they come razor sharp ready to use.

I don't find any difference in stones as long as they are flat, but that's my opinion.

It sounds like you're not getting a consistant angle while you're sharpening. Hold the blade flat on the stone while you're looking at it close, raise the back of the blade up until only the beveled angle is on the stone. Press your thumb tight against the back of the blade and push the knife forward trying to shave the stone. Do 10 -20 strokes, turn the blade over hold the same angle and do the same amount of strokes. Repeat until you can feel a sharp edge.

Add some stropping compound to your strop, lay the blade flat on the strop and pull the blade toward you with the edge facing away (just the opposite of sharpening). Same thing 10-20 strokes, turn the blade over and do the same. Continue polishing the blade until its nice and shiny with no scratches left from the stone. By then it should be more then ready to work.

Colin_Partridge · #3 10-02-2004, 09:53 PM

A sharp knife is essential to good carving and starting with the right knife is a good way to start. Flexcut were my first knifes but I have found there are a lot better out there for around the same price I have about 20 or 30 of them now and hardly ever use my flexcut anymore. My best advice is to go to a supplier and try out various knifes most come razor sharp ready to use and just by stropping them you can keep a really good edge on them. I dont think just because you are having problems sharpening that you should switch to power carving. That is a whole different ball game and can be equally challenging to get the knack of doing it. All of us when we started had the same problem as you are having sharpening out tools I still do with V tools never ever seem to get them as sharp as I would like. But practice makes perfect and even myself now can do a reasonable job on V tools but I keep on trying one day I will perfect them.
Good luck and dont give up
Colin

#4 10-03-2004, 02:32 AM

There are a number of things you need to do to get a good edge on your blades. Holding the blade at a consistent angle while you're sharpening is important as is making sure you take the time to get a good wire edge on each step before moving to the next. You are also missing a step in your sharpening/honing/stropping regimen.

The only times you need to use a coarse stone is when you are setting the first edge, shaping a blade or tool, if you change the bevel, or if it gets badly chipped.

The medium stone is good for retouching a blade or for refining the edge you started with the coarse stone. While a knife sharpened on a medium stone may feel sharp and cut well at first if you look at it under magnification you will see that the scratches on the edge form teeth like a serrated blade or saw and these will quickly beak off and wear out and then you have a dull knife again.

The step you are missing is honing. You need a good hard stone to hone and start the polishing action on the cutting edge. I use a hard arkansas stone for this but water stones or ceramics work well too.

I have a sharpening page on my site that might help you get the idea better. Remember that the only way to get proficient at sharpening is to practice, practice, and the practice some more.

http://cliffordparker.tripod.com/sharpening.html

#5 10-03-2004, 05:32 AM

Well its time for my two cents worth

. A friend used to do fantastic duck carvings, He started with a sharp hatchet, hued the block down to size, used a heavy rasp to shape it. then he went to work carving. I'm not sure how to do the feather detail with the knives and chisels, although I know it can be done. I like the diamond and carbide bits myself. If you want to do ducks, it might be simpler to go the route of buying a Foredom Flex shaft grinder, about $225. and a couple good foredom red typhoon bits for roughing out. A 3/4' cushion sander attachment for the Flex Shaft is a must!! A micro motor, using the diamond and carbide bits, is used for the finer detail and the feathering. Hope this helps

AlArchie · #6 10-03-2004, 08:04 AM

Sounds to me like it's more your technique than the stones, that is causing the problem. My suggestion is to find someone in your area that can actually show you how to properly sharpen a knife. If there aren't any other carvers around, try finding a good sporting goods (read that hunting and fishing, not golf) store and ask the guy behind the hunting counter to help you out. A good hunting or fillet knife is sharpened almost exactly the way a carving or whittling knife is done.

Most malsharpened knives have far too steep an angle on the cutting edge. A blade with a steep angle will have all the characteristics of a razor sharp blade but one. It can be honed to a fine edge, have all the abrasive marks stropped out and STILL not cut because the 'wedge' on the edge is far too steep. Sort of like trying to cut a tree down with a splitting maul instead of an axe. The maul can be razor sharp, but that wedge shaped edge just won't sever the wood fibers.

Find that 'knife guy' in the hardware or sporting goods store and ask for some help. Once you have the technique down, you'll wonder why you had so much trouble before!

Al

#7 10-03-2004, 08:21 AM

The use of the grinder is out. It will be useful in the future for quickly redoing bevels on your tools and initial shaping of the blade if you decide to make a knife sometime (only after lots of practice). I agree with Colin on the Flexcut knives. I whittled for years with a pocket knife before deciding to 'upgrade' to a carving knife. The first two I bought were Flexcut's and was really diasppointed in them. So I bought three more of them, still didn't care for them. Only have the original two as I gave the others away. I'm now up to around 50 knives of various manufacture (not counting pocket knives) and price (varies for around $10 to over $50) plus some homemade ones. With the exception of two manufacturers they are all very good knives with the cheaper ones being some of the best. For practicing sharpening one possibility is to order two 1 1/2' Murphy knives for 'Little Shavers' and have Rick sharpen one and leave the other unsharpened. Don't use the sharpened one, keep it for reference as you practice sharpening and carving with the other. Total cost should be around $25. The Murphy's are very good knives and don't get the credit they deserve, possibly due to their low cost. As for stones here's my lineup: coarse diamond stone, soft arkansas stone, and hard arkansas stone. Seldom use the diamond, but when I've got a lot of metal to remove in a hurry, it's a god send. The arkansas' appear expensive when you look at them, but considering I've had these two for well over 30 years, the price looks a whole lot better.

bcarvings · #8 10-03-2004, 08:53 AM

Hi,
Thanks for all the tips. So I need a coarse stone only if the knife is badly knicked. Then if it is just dull start with a medium stone, of what grit though? Then I go to a black hard arkansaw stone. And then to my leather strop?

I don't think I'm worthy enough to use power tools yet. I have only carved a few miniature mallard ducks. But thanks for the that info, I will look for that powertool and see if it ever goes on sale. Thanks!

Also I have many chisels, and they were very dull, after stropping them each side about 20 times there almost as sharp as an x-acto! However with all of your help I think I can get them sharper! Thanks everyone!

bcarvings · #9 10-03-2004, 08:56 AM

[quote author=Plain_Ol_Ed link=board=Beginner;num=1096764119;start=0#6 date=10/03/04 at 08:21:35]The use of the grinder is out. Â*It will be useful in the future for quickly redoing bevels on your tools and initial shaping of the blade if you decide to make a knife sometime (only after lots of practice). Â* I agree with Colin on the Flexcut knives. Â*I whittled for years with a pocket knife before deciding to 'upgrade' to a carving knife. Â*The first two I bought were Flexcut's and was really diasppointed in them. Â*So I bought three more of them, still didn't care for them. Â*Only have the original two as I gave the others away. Â*I'm now up to around 50 knives of various manufacture (not counting pocket knives) and price (varies for around $10 to over $50) plus some homemade ones. Â*With the exception of two manufacturers they are all very good knives with the cheaper ones being some of the best. Â*For practicing sharpening one possibility is to order two 1 1/2' Murphy knives for 'Little Shavers' and have Rick sharpen one and leave the other unsharpened. Â*Don't use the sharpened one, keep it for reference as you practice sharpening and carving with the other. Â*Total cost should be around $25. Â*The Murphy's are very good knives and don't get the credit they deserve, possibly due to their low cost. Â*As for stones here's my lineup: Â*coarse diamond stone, soft arkansas stone, and hard arkansas stone. Â*Seldom use the diamond, but when I've got a lot of metal to remove in a hurry, it's a god send. Â*The arkansas' appear expensive when you look at them, but considering I've had these two for well over 30 years, the price looks a whole lot better.[/quote]

Hi,
Where I can buy thes murphy knives at the cheapest price? Also are thes murphy knives better than the flexcut knives? Thank you

AlArchie · #10 10-03-2004, 09:10 AM

Murphy knives are sold in a lot of catalogs and all for around the same price. They are very reasonable....I won't say cheap, because they are well made. Rick at littleshavers.com will get them to you in 'ready to go' condition.

Flexcuts LOOK a LOT nicer, but they still are only knives. If you want to pay the small additional cost for Flexcuts, you will be pleased. But Murphys, Butz, Whittlin Jacks, Denny, etc. will ALL do the job. Don't be afraid of any bench knife in the 8 to 20 dollar range. Still, you will need to learn to sharpen, or have someone sharpen for you! It takes some practice, like any other skill, but like any other skill will serve you well!

Al

Al