Relief Project Question?

[Mottles]

Hi All:

Early planning for a relief carving on a 18" Tall x 48" Wide and 1" thick basswood panel. This panel would be mounted on a large wall behind our entrainment center.

The subject/elements will be an arrangement of 'Kachina Dolls' I have carved. I've started working on the drawings for the best design for the panel. Given the composition I may add other Indian elements besides the Kachina Dolls. There will be a 1 1/2" border around the design.

Your input would be helpful and very welcome, I thought I'd get the wood now so when I get my design worked out I can start right away.
I plan to use both hand and power tools also.

What are your thoughts/suggestions to help me avoid some of the pit-falls one might come up against with a panel this size?

Kathy

[Ashbys]

Kathy,

Have you decided how it is going to be mounted. ? Is it to be one board ? The reason I am asking is, have you considered the natural bow involved with the carving.

Sound like an awesome project =)

Garry

[Mottles]

Hey Garry, thank you for replying to my query. YES, it will be one board and my thought is to brace it in three sections on the back of the panel horzontally using screws. What ya think? Any better idea?
Hubby and I are planning a trip down to Phoenix to the Woodworkers Source and I thought I'd see if they have any recommendations.
Kathy

[Irish]

Kathy,

There is little or no way to avoid some cupping and the larger the wood the more warpage you get.

Is your wood one piece ... If so I would love to know your source. An 18" wide basswood board is not that common. One piece is more likely to cup than laminated.

Plus if the board is coming in from the North West you may have a small problem with the change in humity between the two enviroments. If I remember you live in Arizona? So you are moving a large piece from a moist to very dry atmosphere. I would suggest that when it arrived that you clamp the board to a work table using 2x4s and C clamps or sandwich it between 2x4 braces. Then let the wood rest for a few weeks. That will help it to stablize to the Arizona air.

Your bracing, I assume, will run vertically so that they reach across - perpendicularly - to the grain. I would plan to have the braces in place before you begin any work. Screw, don't glue, the braces with a little extra large holes so that the screws have room to move as the wood breathes.

My second thought is to not go any deeper than 1/2 the thickness ... in this case 1/2". The more wood you leave on the back the less cupping. You can always add bandsaw cut wood to the front to add depth.

At 1" thick the board really has little thickness for stability for that width of board ... you could find that over time the board could warp like a noodle with one end headed one way and the second end twisting in the other direction. Is it possible to get the board in a deeper thickness? A 2" board really could reduce the warpage dramatically, even a 1 1/2".

My last thought is to work the entire design down slowly so that the stress is evenly distributed as you work. Avoid going directly to one area and do all the level work then go some place else. Remember that each cut changes the tension of the wood.

So ... clamp, clamp, clamp ....

Susan

[Irish]

Ooops ... Bill Judt has an EXCELLENT pdf file for download on his website on how to angle the edges of boards that are being laminated to create one large carving blank. He works the angle so that the center of the laminate is raised into a slight upward cup. That way when you are finished carving the wood naturally warps into a flat backed work.

Susan

[Ashbys]

Susan ,

Exactly what I was thinking. The cuping of the board could be extream. Whit the grain running the length It could rip it'self from the wall. There are a couple of tricks that can help reduce it. Remaining in the first half , you could do what is done to guitar necks . They use a piece of mahgony down the back side , by releasing a section and adding a seam support. It will help greatly as being an oily wood draws less moisture so support is gained.

The second carve against the growth rings. in other words from the outside in. These are not the grain lins , these are the rings seen from the end that form circle patterns. This will allow the growth rings to give a bit of support against the cupping effect.

Third , well I would suggest using a backing board glued solidly across the back , then your supports. A 1/2 inch board will give a lot of support against cupping.

Bill's Judt pdf is what I was thinking why I asked if it was a single board.

Of couse only opinion Wink

Ash

[Irish]

Originally Posted by Ashbys

Susan ,

Third , well I would suggest using a backing board glued solidly across the back , then your supports. A 1/2 inch board will give a lot of support against cupping.

Bill's Judt pdf is what I was thinking why I asked if it was a single board.

Of couse only opinion Wink

Ash

Garry, there can be real problems with glueing a back board to a peice this large ... this wide. Wood has to be allowed to breathe. Even cut and dried it's a 'living' product that changes with the seasons. So the board will swell during hot humid summers and shrink during dry winters. This is added to the natural tendency to cup or warp from the carving process.

When you glue a board to another board you stop or limit the natural swelling process. Eventually, instead of just cupping one of the two glue boards will split with the grain lines. Now you have a cracked carving ....

Remember how extremely strong glue is. One of the first lessons I learned as a new woodworker was that screws are only used to 'clamp' two pieces together until the glue dries. It's the glue that is strongest. I am also reminded of frame and panel doors where the panel piece is secured only by the dado, never by nail or glue, as the panel needs to be allowed room for the physical changes that come with any wood.

Mike ususally does any prep work as this for me. His favorite brace is oak the same thickness as the board. He will drill the screw hole in the brace so that it is a touch big and he just brings the screw down to hand tight ... never that extra crank.

He and I will plot out the pattern work first so that the screws are in deep areas so that I don't carve down to expose one of them.

That way the carving board "floats" against the bracing.

Susan

[Mottles]

QUOTE SUSAN IRISH

There is little or no way to avoid some cupping and the larger the wood the more warpage you get.

Am I taking on to much, maybe this project is over my head/ability/experience. I had thought of also doing it in three panels, instead of one piece. Which is still an option.
Thank you, also for the Bill Judt reference.

Is your wood one piece ... If so I would love to know your source. An 18" wide basswood board is not that common. One piece is more likely to cup than laminated.

Yes, what I was planning would be one piece. I will be talking to the folks at WoodWorkers Source in Phoenix, Az. tomorrow. Website www.woodworkersource.net

Plus if the board is coming in from the North West you may have a small problem with the change in humity between the two enviroments. If I remember you live in Arizona? So you are moving a large piece from a moist to very dry atmosphere. I would suggest that when it arrived that you clamp the board to a work table using 2x4s and C clamps or sandwich it between 2x4 braces. Then let the wood rest for a few weeks. That will help it to stablize to the Arizona air.

Makes sense, I don't know where they get their wood, but will ask for sure. I have enough supplies and room to clamp and brace the piece.

Your bracing, I assume, will run vertically so that they reach across - perpendicularly - to the grain. I would plan to have the braces in place before you begin any work. Screw, don't glue, the braces with a little extra large holes so that the screws have room to move as the wood breathes.

OK, sounds good, I had planned to screw in the braces, but didn't know about the large holes. Thank you!

My second thought is to not go any deeper than 1/2 the thickness ... in this case 1/2". The more wood you leave on the back the less cupping. You can always add bandsaw cut wood to the front to add depth.

Good point!

At 1" thick the board really has little thickness for stability for that width of board ... you could find that over time the board could warp like a noodle with one end headed one way and the second end twisting in the other direction. Is it possible to get the board in a deeper thickness? A 2" board really could reduce the warpage dramatically, even a 1 1/2".

I should be able to get 1 1/2" to 2" thickness I'll see what they can do.

My last thought is to work the entire design down slowly so that the stress is evenly distributed as you work. Avoid going directly to one area and do all the level work then go some place else. Remember that each cut changes the tension of the wood.

My thought was to get my overall background depth in first then work forward to each level. Finish the background deepest cuts evenly across the piece.

So ... clamp, clamp, clamp ....

OK clampl clamp, clamp it is, thanks much Susan for taking the time to give your thoughts and suggestions very much appreciated.

Kathy

Susan[/quote]

SUSAN AND GARRY, THANK YOU BOTH FOR THIS DICUSSION. I KNOW YOU TWO HAVE A LOT MORE KNOWLEDGE ABOUT WOOD THAN ME. I DID RIGHT BY STARTING THIS THREAD, YOU BOTH MADE GOOD POINTS AND GAVE ME FOOD FOR THOUGHT. I SINCERELY HOPE THAT OTHER RELIEF CARVERS ESPECIALLY NEW RELIEF CARVERS WILL TAKE THE TIME TO FOLLOW AND LEARN FROM THIS THREAD. THIS IS ONE OF THE MANY REASONS THIS WCI MESSAGE BOARD IS SO DARN GOOD. IT'S CARVERS HELPING CARVERS.

[MelNM]

Great Thread Kathy I been wanting to do some larger reliefs also, but I'm chicken. I've seen Bill Judts way of doing these and also remember seeing one where one lady carver had boards on the back of the relief to help reduce the cupping. She had a name for it and for the life of me I can't remember what she called it. If I remember right she was a carver in New Your. I really liked her reliefs because they were a folk art style of carving.

Make sure you show the progress on your relief I know I'm interested.
Mel

[Ashbys]

Susan,

Thanks,
I guess I was thinking about laminate support. Plywood , But again this is a long piece and thin.

Kathy,

I bow to the master ( mistress ) .

Seems like all the ladies in my life enjoy telling me what to do Red Face

Lol

Garry