[Mottles]

Yeah, that duck, every time I look at it I just want to throw it in the trash. It's like keeping a painting you don't like because it didn't meet your expatations. These are the very things one needs to keep as a reminder. Not every thing is doing to work out as with life. LOL

Thank you, Doris for your thoughts on under-cutting and how you go about working on your reliefs you do have valid points. In thinking about it a painted relief doesn't in my estimation need a lot of under-cutting. Because a goodly amount of painting the values does the work for you. An unpainted relief even though it's more work I think needs some under-cutting to really capture cast shadow and give even more depth to your subject in it's setting. I don't think you have to under-cut every object just where you think it might help your relief.

I like the look of the rounded edges, which creates a soft effect. Not so hard lined...
The more I work on the panel I do think I'm going to paint the dolls. What I'll do is apply the chosen stain on the entire panel. Let it dry for a couple days and go right in with oil paints. I'll paint the dolls first, evaluate if painting the background will inhance the overall effect.

Please keep those thoughts coming as this project is one step at a time. I've never done anything quite like this and I need feedback.

Thanks Again,
Kathy

[Ashbys]

Kathy ,

When you started I assumed you were doing a high relief. How tall do the figures stand from the background ? I noticed you lowered the right and left .

I know you know but for the new people , (just learning) a high relief carving is made using undercuts to highlight the carving with shadows. The carving can be no more than a 1/4 tall and be a high relief carving.

A low relief carving or bas carving uses no undercuts.

Kathy the background work looks very good so far. I have not commented because you doing great and at this point in time I am just watching the progress.

Ash

[doris]

no, that is not quite right (or i misunderstand, due to language problem) ... so to clearify, a highrelief is a high relief not because it is more than 1/4 tall, it can be even smaller in depth, but it is called high relief since it shows no (or almost no) compression in depth. that means the wood has the required depth to carve the object completely upto the depth one can see from the chosen view. high relief - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
a relief is bas relief when it does compress the object in depth strongly, the altar side reliefs of the holy blood altar of riemenschneider is 5cm=2'' deep, but they are bas relief (pictures are in the book, limewoodsculptures of the german renaissance)... while the center altar piece is high relief...and, in master carvings, reliefs, be it bas or high, are never undercut as a general rule, except when the object carved requires it.
i have studied the old masters like riemenschneider and stoss, and others, here in churches in germany in situ, and touched them to explore, and none of their reliefs, be it bas or high, are never undercut as a general rule...there, undercutting occurs only, if the whole head, say is carved in the round and elevated from the background, while the rest of the figure "sticks still" halfway in the wood, sometimes carved in complete depth, sometimes in compressed depth, so the carving being high and bas relief in one (has a very dramatic effect, and was used more in barock and rokoko times ...)

kathy, oh, just for clearification, maybe you misunderstood my saying with that ridge ? of course, you should see from straight front all the round edges the object requires, only ..i attach a small pic to show what i mean...as i said, try it out to see the effect. .... and yes, i agree, the painting of the kachinas will help with perception of depth too. ...have happy carving, never worry if it is high or bas relief, just carve what you feel like it should look like :-)

[Mottles]

Thank you, Doris & Ash for your view points on relief carving. I'm not sure where my relief carving is going to fall, maybe somewhere in between if that is possible. LOL

All I know is I'm making every effort to give this carving a dimentional appearance. Lora Irish (Susan) on the web site has what I think is a pretty good explantion of low and high relief Woodcarving, Low Relief Carving. As I have been carving for about two years now. There is so much I need to learn about relief carving. I hope by the time this is finished and someone ask's me is my carving low or high relief I can tell them which it is with confidence.

I really do appreciate both your points of view regarding relief carving and I thank you for taking the time to be a part of this thread and much needed help for me.
Doris, thank you for the diagram, and yes I did misunderstand you. As they say a picture is worth a thousand words.
Please both of you keep watching my progress and interject your thoughts and suggestions.
Kathy

[caltain]

Hey! Just saw this fabulous WIP! I love kachina dolls, among other southwesty things. I can't wait to see the finished work. I guess I'm not alone there!

The cupping problem hasn't been a problem for me yet, but I've only done a few small ones so far. Interesting solution you've come up with though. I'd have done a crossing grain laminate panel on the back as a first solution. Seems that I read on one online carver's site that he'd had success with beveling each board at the joint prior to gluing. He recommended cutting the joint faces at a 1.5 degree angle, thus giving the finished joint a 3 degree angle. He said that the angles are dependent on the size of the work and the wood used. I wish that I could cite the carver, or link to his site, but I can't find the page now. All I can remember is that he's an ex-minister in Alaska. Ring any bells for anyone? If so please post a link and name. It's a good solution for which he deserves the credit.

As for the border art, I'd go with pre-Colombian cave art, but in a small style. Maybe alternating or even thematic, like a hunt story.

Anyway, keep up the good work and thanks for letting us peek behind the curtain!

Dan Brooks, aka caltain

[Ashbys]

Caltain,

That sounds like Bill Judt's site.

Relief Woodcarving by W.F. (Bill) Judt

Look under carving techiques.

Great site and carver.

Other great sites is a great resource by WCI . Left side of the boards, belows the free carving patterns. Under Artistians .

Ash

[Irish]

Kathy! Great subject, great layout and really great start to the work. Your levels are coming along wonderfully.

Ok ... jumping intothis discussion about relief carving styles with both feet

I do agree that not all relief carvings need or even desire undercuts. But I am not so sure that this is a contriversal subject, I think it simply falls with the thoughts of the carver, that particular carving and the style that they want to use. Some carving ask for undercuts, some don't and no relief carver either MUST ALWAYS or NEVER use them.

I pulled a few examples from my carving bag as examples. All of these were worked on 3/4" thick basswood and have an outer dimension of 6" or less. I thought they would make for a good comparison.

The bas_relief griffon is a classic - historic styled carving. As Doris noted bas does not use an undercut. The joint lines between the elements is full exposed to the eye. The joint line is not insiced with a v-gouge but falls flush or square to the next level of carving. Bas relief usually is very stylized in that there was little shaping or rounding within the body area of the elements. Notice on the griffon how flat his head, legs and feet are. Also the feathers, though sloped into the background are very flat.

So a classic bas relief would have several layers with rounded over edges within the design and little or not sculpting or shaping of any area. It has an extremely flat appearence.

The low_relief macaw shows the differences between bas and low relief. The macaws body has begun to have shape and sculpturing independent of the elements edges. So even though the wing joint at the body is not undercut and visible the wing has a rounded rolled shape. Compare the head of the macaw with it's more realistic shaping to the flat surface of the griffon's head.

I think everyone at one time or other has seen the high-relief little barn carving. As Doris pointed out this one does use the undercut but only where that style of carving is really needed. In this sample it's used to properly slope the barn roofs so that the back sides literally fall away from you. Still many of the joint lines are flush with no undercuts. The barn and silo both have shaping and sculpting done to their structures.

All of the above are very classic, historic and traditional carving styles. But styles change and today the high relief undercut can be used to exaggerate the shadows that your carving creates. In the last sample with barn behind the split rail fence the fence is nearly free standing. It has been undercut to create dramatic shadows. In this modern styled high relief its the cast shadows that become important!

So, there are a lot of styles to relief carving that encompass both the way the joint is treated, the way the element is shaped or not shaped and the way shadows can be created.

None are righter than any other style or wronger than any ... they are, however, a nice wide variety available to the relief carver from which to chose.

Bas Relief - visual joints, rounded edges, flat bodies

Low Relief - visual joints, rounded or sculptured edges, shaped bodies

High Relief - visual joints and undercuts where that accent enhances the realistic effect.

Modern High Relief - lots of undercuts, dramatic undercuts and free floating elements to create dark, heavy cast shadows.

(OK, gang! My spell checker isn't working ... so I will go ahead and apologize in advance ... )

Susan

[Mottles]

Hi Dan, I believe you are thinking of the same carver Bill Judt which Ash gave a link to his site. Which Ash is also right he is a terrific carver.
Regarding the backing another carver came up with the releaving on the background to help avoid capping or at least lessen it. Please when you have have read this thread Relief Project Question? where others make their recommendations.
The Kachina Doll is a favorite of mine too, and these are all dolls I have carved with the exception of one the 'Sun Maiden.' My Pal MelNM on this site carved and painted this one.
Thank you, and I'm glad you like my WIP and please feel free to comment anytime.
Kathy

[Mottles]

HAAAA, Susan I'm glad and thank you, for deciding to jump in to this discussion. As I told Doris a picture is worth a thousand words and thank you for your carving images and there explanations.
This not only helps me, but helps other's too.
I appreciate everyone thoughts, I'm keeping an open mind--just call me 'sponge Kathy'
Thanks Again,
Kathy

[tnartist05]

Kathy,Im not into WIPs really but when you have finished I will be looking forward to viewing your work. I know its a larger carving for you but seems you are more than handling it ratter well so far.

Forrest