[Frameshop]

HI - We have a frame shop. Is there anyone who can give me an idea of what is a typical pay range for a wood carver in a frame shop. We are located near Los Angeles. My husband used to do all the carving himself, now we are farming out the work and being robbed blind. We would like to hire a carver full time but not sure what is fair pay.

Thanks,

Frameshop

[AlArchie]

Not knowing what going labor rates are in your area makes it a little hard to come up with a figure, but here's a thought. What was your husband's return on his carved frames? I would not expect to pay any less than that.
There is another option open to you. Have you looked into CNC carving setups? There would be a fairly high initial setup cost, but once that was made, you would have no more wages to worry about and the frames could be individually custom made right from the computer.

You might also try contacting P. Graham Dunn. They area "woodcarving" supplier that does a lot of custom frame manufacturing, including some CNC carved frames. I think theyonly do wholesale orders, but when I vivited their shop last year they were turning out quantity (and quality) cnc panel work, and if I remember right, some frames.
http://www.pgrahamdunn.com/

Al

[Eddy Smiles]

Obviously you are a small business and have limited resources. My suggestion would be first that you already know what you don't want to pay so use that as are starting point and start decreasing the amount to the point of what you can afford to pay. It's fair to say that you'd be hiring an artist, not a run of the mill blue collar worker but if you don't get any bites with your initial offering amount you can always re-advertise offering more. I would imagine that you'd have to balance your offering price between the prospective employees experience and technical ability in relation to benefits such as health insurance and sick and personal time. It's been my experience that pay is not always a factor for a motivated employee and I would imagine that anyone who seriously carves for a living would tend to be motivated so good working conditions, fair treatment by management and attractive benefits would most likely be as important in hiring as pay would. One of the basic management principals being lost in today's employee recruitment and retention market place is the "Golden Rule." If you treat an employee as you'd want to be treated then the likelihood of that employee meeting your expectations will be greatly increased. I realize that this is not exactly what you were looking for but based on my management experience it is what I would do if I was in your place.

[wade clark]

What is the cost of living where you are? If you live on the Nevada desert and can train someone and provide a trailer home and pocket change, maybe you can get by pretty cheap. If you're in Manhattan, NY, the trailer and pocket change won't work.
Do you want a great artist or someone willing to learn?
I took a job in Boston one Winter (1977) taking care of Belgian Horses. It paid $15 a week plus room and board--a bunk in the barn and leftovers. The Summer before I'd been making $10 an hour. The $15 a week job was better. It's all relative. If you can find the right person, train them, treat them right, then everybody wins.
Good luck!
Wade

[Thor]

If you are hiring an artist, it seems important to ask the artist you are hiring their prices and then pass that custom price along to your customer. Otherwise, stock molding might be more appropriate for their price range.
Thor

[Hi_Ho_Sliver]

Maybe you should contact "Goody" here on the forum, he is trying to get his business going and has a duplicator.....?

[Ashbys]

I am not sure of what would be considered fair wages for a carver. I think it would be a bit more detailed than that.

Here's what I mean.

If you pay the man 15.00 an hour , then your cost since your running a business has to adjust.

If you have a retail liscense does not mean you have a liscense to produce a manufactured procduct. Also , the hiring of one employee can completly change your way of producing frames. The same things you could do as a self owned operation, may no longer apply to how you must now do things.
The hiring of an employee brings forward many additional rules, Osha, Labor , Tax laws, operational expense, EPA, and many others all based upon the fact that your no longer doing the work yourself.

The hiring of one employee can change your entire world, the shop which you have worked in for years, now has to met safety requirements which were not imposed before. Failure to do so can result in your entire world to be lost. Osha standards become in play as soon as you employee one person. So if the equiptment you presently use does not meet the requirements you can be looking at fines, even possible jail terms. Make sure your ready for the adjustments.

Next , as the employer you are responible to insure the employee is legally able to work for you, there are forms which your required to maintain and records which your required to keep.

Next you are required to collect taxes from wages, as well as to match certain funds. like Social Security and medicare. Your also have reports which were not required before now required to be filed.

Your insurance will need to be adjusted, as you will now have work comp as well as modifactions to your base insurance.

So if your ready for all these changes , you need to check some local laws as well, many cities now have laws requireing living wage, and other local fees for employment.

A living wage law , would be basically like this , lets say the average wage for a carver is 25.00 per hour, but because of the high cost of living in your area the local goverment has determined that a living wage is 10 percent higher in your area than the acepted average, and that any wage under 27.55 would be under the level , then your starting wage has to be at least the 27.55.

The bottom lie really works out as to how much you decide your willing to pay. Realizing the cost and modifing your selling price to meet this new level.

An excellent example is Mark Y. if gets 60.00 an inch for a frame and you were employing him your cost to sell that same frame would have to be 150.00 an inch. to cover your overhead and the additional cost of employement.

There is a reason Mom and Pop businesses have advantages over larger businesses.

Not sure this helps , but it does show some of why American business takes such a beating from imports.

[mark yundt]

Not knowing the volume of work you would have for a carver,nor the type of carvings you would need,finding a carver might prove difficult.First,, they don't just fall out of the woodwork.There are many people who carve,,but mouldings and architectural type work is another thing all together.If you do find someone who is capable of this work , he/she,has learned the skills necessary somewhere along the way. And if this is true,,then they already know they can make more money doing their own work or as a sub contractor than working for a fixed rate.You might get lucky and find a retiree who is looking for some extra income though.An area that I am familiar with is the kitchen cabinet industry. Some of them are doing dozens of kitchens a week,,but even with all the brackets,range hoods,corbels,mouldings,accents that they use,,they won't hire a full time carver themselves,,they prefer to sub it out,even though a hand carved piece will average 500 % more than what is generally available. Being "robbed blind" can be a state of mind.Before you didn't have to pay for your carvings.Now that you see what a hand carved piece actually goes for ,there is some sticker shock.Most people want carvings ,,but are unwilling to pay for what costs. If you take your car to the shop,,in this area at least,, it starts at $50.00 an hour to remove and replace the parts the computer says are bad. But people dont want to pay a carver ,,who will design,and implement that design utilizing a set of skills not found in most,the minimum,for a piece of art that will be with them longer than that car. The point is,, very few have a reference as to what carvers get paid for their work,,,we don't live in Taiwan,,the costs here are a bit more I've found if you have any interest in actually making a living at carving.

[Frameshop]

Wow...what a range of answers! However, nothing I was looking for. Everyone assumed a lot and assumed incorrectly. I guess if you don't really know the answer to this question, then please don't answer. I'm looking to hear from someone who has comparable experience.
I already have a carver. We carve complicated frame designs, such as Louis XVI, Baroque, Rococco, Plein Air, Arts and Crafts, Art Nouveau, etc. We work 40 or more hours per week. We are in the L.A. area. I currently pay him by the piece. I am paying him a lot!!!!! I would like to know what are other carvers being paid.
Please I don't want to know about working in Taiwan or living in a trailer in the Nevada desert.

Thanks!

[mark yundt]

Maybe the answers had to be assumed simply because the question was so ambiguous. Answers were given to a vague question.If you care to give something specific,,an example of the work you are looking for and what you are currently paying only then can a specific answer be given.If you simply ask "how much to paint my house?"there can be a WIDE variety of answers. If you would simply ask a SPECIFIC question,,,and if you had told us you already HAVE a carver,,and what you are PAYING for a SPECIFIC type of carving then WE would have something to go on.Till then ,, ask a specific question if you want a decent answer. Many people think they are paying "alot",,.that's a relative term,,actually doesn't mean a thing when you come right down to it.Everyone so far has given you a good answer to an open ended question. What are the rates in your area,,, what's the demand,,what is the quality you are looking for,,sure,, everything seems like "alot" when your husband was basically doing it for free,,,that is if you or he doesn't value the time involved. So show me an example of the work,,, what you were charged and I'll give you a specific answer based on NORTHEAST USA prices....till then,, whatever he charged and whatever you were willing to pay is just the right price.

If you have always cooked for your family,,,done the cleaning ,,or the wash,,,or was always tending to children,,,,yourself,FOR FREE,,,then if you had to actually PAY someone to do this free stuff,,,well,, whatever you had to pay might seem like ,,,,,,ALOT! it's not a fair reference point,,I would almost be willing to bet whatever you're paying is a fair if not even cheap price,and besides all that,,,whatever he is charging,, you as a business owner isn't really paying it,,, your customers are,,THEY are the ones who are really footing the final bill, not you.And now you're upset you can't get the same markup on the work as when your husband did it for "FREE"????Have your customers refused to pay when given the estimate???? Are they still placing orders???? Apparently you're keeping your carver busy aren't you???Is your motive how much you can mark something up or what you're willing to pay an artist???