[BobD]

This is a great topic my friend! It really makes everyone examine their feelings.

Personally, I don't think I could carve someone elses design and enter it into a contest--and I'm enough of a beginner that I haven't designed much on my own yet. In an amateur competition or category, I can see using patterns or guidance; many competitions have a "roughout" category and an "instructor-assisted" category. Now I ask, if someone carves something based on a magazine article or by following instructions in a book, would that be considered "instructor-assisted?" If it isn't currently considered to be instructor assisted, should it be?

The Best in Show win is what would bother me the most. In my opinion, Best in Show should relate to the Creme de la creme...excellent carving, design, and execution of an origional design.

i think at the least, people should give credit for the origional design to the designer!

Bob

[JIM QUILICI]

Originally Posted by Hi_Ho_Sliver

I know that for someone to copy the work for their own use is fine, but for someone to copy your work exactly and enter into a competition! Sorry, that is theft in my opinion...also a sorry individual that would do that!

that could not have been said any better unless I said my self.
Just old Jim

[artolver]

Alfie,
People have been making copies of the works of Pacific Northwest Native American carvers for years and years.
Copycats and ribbons?, they're meaningless to me. The trouble is nowadays it seems to be a huge part of our state of woodcarving in America.
Art

[AlArchie]

I've entered several carvings that were from patterns drawn up by other carvers, and they have won ribbons even though I have posted notes with them stating "From a Design By*******" I think that that is the only honest way to proceed with this type of carving. GIVE credit to the designer and TAKE credit for the carving.......seems fair to me.

On the other hand, I've done a few original carvings (one of an orca that I drew up from seeing Shamu at Sea World) and have seen several other carvers do almost exactly the same whale. Well, just how many poses can a whale have, anyway? I've also given that pattern to several people, and if they win ribbons with their rendition of it, fine with me. I'd feel a little guilty though if I did an exact copy of someone else's work and entered it as my own. Take the idea and run with it, making your own adaptations and interpretations.

Al

[mikeg]

I have to agree with Al. Give credit where it's due. The carver should have had a notice on or beside his carving stating that it was copied from your pattern.

Unfortunately, there are people who are less than scrupulous about these things.

mikeg

[Irish]

OK .. I went back and re-read your opening statement a couple of times and see that there are two different situations stated. My mistake, I apologize for not reading more closely.

You wrote: "At that time I fully understood that the purpose of the article was to share and have other carvers make and reproduce a Spirit Lure. Now please understand that I have absolutely no problem with that....
That’s ok. I am still fine but now I am seeing them in carving competition and they are exact copies of the lure I did for the article. They are winning ribbons."

If you published with the understanding that you designs would be copied then why are you surprised that they were? Your article was posted in a How-To-Carve magazine that is purchased for the intent of finding new ideas and new patterns for that hobbiest to carve. The hobbiest did have the right to carve that piece and if the show rules allowed it to be entered he had the right to do so.

You wrote: "another lure that was shown in the article from my web site and said "and that one took the Best of Show Ribbon."

This one could be in question as it was published right along with the one that had the pattern. For the lure that was copied from your site it could be a violation of your copyright but it could also be seen as part of the article and therefore also usable and copyable. As a magazine article author this is one of the situations that such puplicity creates. You have allowed them to copy some of your work so they assume that it's OK to copy any of your work. It's part of being an author. If you included it in the article it could well be fair game ... I not sure that this would be considered a violation!

If that hobbiest went to your website, took an image that was not offered in the magazine, copied it - that is a violation. And if he entered it he won with a stolen design.

There is an implied "right to use" when something is published in a How-To type of magazine. Now if that same article without the pattern work was published in Homes and Gardens or Good House Keeping spotlightling an artist instead of the art, it would be a different situation. They are not How-To-Carve mags.

But I also notice that no where on your website do you have a copyright statement! There is no "Copyright, Fishgap, 2005. All Rights Reserved. The designs, images, and text may not be copied without the written permission of the website owner, Aflie Fishgap". To protect yourself in the future it might be wise to post this to each and every image that you are showing and on each and every page. This distinguishes what you are offering for use by a hobbiest and what you are not! You might want to consider putting a copyright statement on your images and on your website.

Susan

[Lightningbolt]

Even if the exact copy of your carving was published and now thus labeled as "fair game" I still can't even conceive the nerve of someone that would come right up to you and say such things. That's just my opinion speaking from my own personal value system (although far from perfect!) I would have a hard time bragging to the author in the same situation.

Back in 2001 I was manning a requiting booth for our organization during a boy scout jamboree and I took a whole bunch of my own mini-totem pole collection to set up for display on our table. They were a real eye catcher for sure and brought a lot of prospective interest our way but it didn't take long before the cameras started clicking. No asking permission but just a lot of real close up micro details type photography. That was my first experience with such a thing and it really just hit me by surprise but it did bring out some feelings on my part since those totem poles represented a lot of my own original ideas. I didn't display a lot of emotion over it all but I did manage to "ditch" several of the really original pieces under the table after that... not that I didn't want to share, but like I said it hit my from behind so to say and I just needed some time to process the situation.

Yes, I still do share a LOT (most) of what I carve freely for public display because that brings me and others so much joy. On the other hand the option of not sharing is also not a part of my value system because that's the biggest part of it in my opinion. Buttttttttttttttt... I might add, there are some pieces that I just have never released from the snug and cuddly confines of my own home. Such as my mini-totem pole collection, there are some carvings that I've worked long and hard to produce and I consider these my most original carvings. Heck, I might even put 'em in a book or something someday after retirement, but for whatever reason I just can't yet get the green light in my head to come on an release certain carvings just yet.

If I ever do get the "umption in my gumption" to publish some of my original carvings, like those I saw of yours, and someone approached me in the same bragging manner as you were approached then I'm sure that my deeply embedded value system would start waving red flags all over my brain. Just wouldn't be right and any woodcarving show worth its weight in shavings would have something to disqualify such entries.

[kaiserb]

If we are going to talk about feelings...

I am feeling the offender should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

Oh and legally the offender should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

[jamesfa]

Alfie-we talked briefly on the week-end about this situation that seems to be troubling you.

the article gave you some much needed exposure,and you should be flattered that folks have copied your pattern myself included( but when i posted on the board i gave you credit)
as for this fellow who won a ribbon it is a very hollow victory copying exactly your work and claiming it as his own.(
the judges at the Halton show were wrong in selecting these two carvings for some kind of award,unless they have not read or glance at the particular WCI magazine.
if it would help you might want to send a short note to the president of the Halton Carving Club and express your thoughts,and asked when you will be recieving your ribbons.

Frank

[Callynne]

My opinion, hmmmmm, first let me say, I think if a person is entering a carving into competition, they should say that's it's based on a design by who ever the artist is. However, having entered into competition, I know that no one ever asked me that. They have a catagory for students and one for rough outs. Not one for 'based on designs by'. Since I design all my own carvings and have since the beginning, I never gave it a thought before this.

Alfie, I think the person who did this would be mortified to realize it has made you feel so badly. I'm sure when he came up to you he was so proud, both of himself and of you. Of himself, because he could so closely follow your directions and of you, for sharing them and making clear how to do it. I'm sure he thought you'd be proud of him also.

A step by step article is a success if people can follow it and produce a carving that looks like it. In showing it step by step, we are giving them that opportunity, if they succeed, we have succeeded. Unfortunately, any other carvings shown in the article, unless otherwise specified, could be seen as available to be copied also.

If this happened to me, I would feel I'd succeeded in what I'd started out to do. Which was to 'give away' the design and instructions of what was featured in the article. It's like when we give a gift to someone, in the giving of it, we relinquish our right to what the receiver of the gift does with it. So my opinion is, you gave the gift well Alfie, obviously you gave it very well indeed! Deborah