[Fishgap]

I have been struggling with this for a while and thought, what better way to put it to rest than ask my fellow carvers for their opinion.

Ok here goes,

As you may know or may not know I recently had an article published in Wood Carving Illustrated.

At that time I fully understood that the purpose of the article was to share and have other carvers make and reproduce a Spirit Lure. Now please understand that I have absolutely no problem with that.

Since then I have seen many Spirit Lures in different places, Carving Shows, Carving Clubs, and alike.

Some of the Lures are exact copies of the pattern and others have put their own artwork on them.

I am now seeing them show up in Wood Carving Competition, and some have their own art work on them.

That’s ok. I am still fine but now I am seeing them in carving competition and they are exact copies of the lure I did for the article. They are winning ribbons.

Well now I am not sure how I should feel.

The straw that broke the camels back so to speak, was this weekend at the Wood & Carving Show when a man walked up to the table pointed at the magazine article and said "that lure won a first place ribbon at the Halton Woodcarving Championships." My response was "What lure?" "That lure" he said.

I hesitated and said, "that’s my lure?" "I know, I won a first place ribbon with it."

I was lost for words when he pointed at another lure that was shown in the article from my web site and said "and that one took the Best of Show Ribbon." I hesitated and said " you made them identical?" he said "yep" and before I could think of a response he walked away disappearing into the crowd.

My question to you is, How would you feel if someone copied your carving and put it in a carving competition as their own and won ribbons.

I need your 2 cents as ½ of me says, childish and the other says, morals.

[Bob's Birds]

Alfie,

That is why I quit competing many years ago. Once you put a carving out for the public to see, it becomes everybody's property, so to speak.
There was a time that carvers would respect other carvers work and use the ideas along with their own to create another composition. Also, the judge's would disqualify direct copies of other artisit's work, but that doesn't seem to be the case in today's competitions.
This is a great thread you have started and I can't wait to see how it develops.

Keep up the great work.

Bob

[squbrigg]

Alfie my friend. It is good to "see" you again! I was wondering where you had disappeared to? I know, work, work, work! Well Cola, it is good to see you back with us.

As to your question.....the responses you will get will vary. I tend to be flattered that someone has been encouraged to carve and to choose my creation to copy. I that they present the carving in a competition and won, well, again I tend to think: "congratulations on your carving skills". Everyone in the carving world knows where the idea came from, they all read WCI magazine and know that the lures were authored by Alfie Fishgap!!!

I also realize that some carvers will object to this opinion, that they feel that they have the exclusive right to their creation. They may have that right if they wish to copyright the object, and have it officially protected. I tend to take a different view of things, I like to share my skills, talents and ideas. As do many others on the site. If I can inspire someone to carve by my efforts, then I feel happy. Many folks have inspired me with their gift of their design skills. Like our Susan Irish for example.

"Copying is the greatest form of flattery!"....someone said. I agree with that statement.

What I don't agree with is someone taking your idea and going commercial with them. That is just theft. But carving something and entering it in a contest and winning, to me that is flattery. It is their skill that is being judged. Not your idea.

Well, this is just an opinion my friend....you may agree or disagree with it as you feel. It is good to see you are still keeping busy Cola and you sound like your fiesty self!!! I'm happy to see you back on line again.

Bob

[Hi_Ho_Sliver]

I know that for someone to copy the work for their own use is fine, but for someone to copy your work exactly and enter into a competition! Sorry, that is theft in my opinion...also a sorry individual that would do that!

[Colin_Partridge]

Alfie and I had this discussion on Friday at the show and I could tell that he wasnt sure how he should feel. We both agreed that fishing lures were nothing new spirit lures also go back many generations. I agree with Bob if someone copies my carving it is flattering as a lot of carvers do but when you see it for sale along side yours then that is tacky. There is nothing to say they cant do it, seems we have had this discussion on another thread and it really comes down to ethics. Some people have them and some do not and if they dont there isnt much we can do about it. Knowing Alfie and his heritage I can see where he would be upset because it all comes down to honor and he and I believe that a mans honor should always be sacred. It is a great thread I am also like Bob (Bobs Birds) I dont enter competitions anymore simply for that reason and a whole bunch of other reasons but we wont get into that on this thread. Alfie I am torn I know how you feel because I feel the same as you but I can also see the other perspective. I also will be interested to see how others feel.
Colin

[kaiserb]

Originally Posted by Fishgap

My question to you is, How would you feel if someone copied your carving and put it in a carving competition as their own and won ribbons.

I need your 2 cents as ½ of me says, childish and the other says, morals.

Well when you are just having fun carving... you should be FLATTERED that someone copied your work.

Seriously the copyright laws need to be enforced. I guarentee you I could never write an essay with content plagerized from a book and get away with winning an award. It should be the same in the carving world, however the number of people who give it the, oh well attitude, about copying peoples work ruin it for all.

[Irish]

Alfie! Great question that has no right or wrong answer. Feelings aren't
facts, they are just your reaction to facts. Feelings tell us when "something is safe" and when "something is dangerous" to our well being. And you can have many feelings at the same time about the same situation. So it is OK to feel both proud because your idea won first place and upset because "that was MY design!"

Second, please let me qualify where my opinion on Alfie's most excellent question comes from ... I am a pattern maker, carver, author and a teacher. I do not compete in carving shows and never have. That comes from many years ago as an arts and crafts teacher. In our area at that time any show that I would have participated in would have been the same competition that my students were entering. If has never seemed right to me to place my
work against the work of my students ...

As a long time teacher I have come to know that creating a design concept,
creating drawn pattern and actually doing a wood carving are three totally
different independent skills. Newbies are dependent on patterns and designs
in their early carvings as those patterns give them guidelines and references
to how to carve their work. As a carver's skills grow often they begin taking
the pattern or design and adapting it to their own works, but the original
pattern work is still contained in the carving.

Some carvers do progress to the stage where they are creating all three aspects of the carving craft - design concepts, patterns, and the carving work. Maybe 10 to 20% of all the hobby carvers. And many of those individuals are now called teachers, authors and article writers ... GRIN!

But many, many carvers never do or will be able to do the early design work.
Some people have no sense of 2-D drawing or how to translate their idea that they can see in their minds eye onto either the paper or the board. But that doesn't mean that their ability to work the wood is diminished. There are a lot of great wood carvers that are doing wood cuts way beyond anything I will ever accomplish that have never drawn a pattern in their entire life.

As a pattern maker when I create a pattern and put it out to the public I expect that pattern to be used! I expect the carver to trace it, carve it, paint it and if they think it is good enough to enter it in their local show for competition. And if they win a prize it's ALL theirs. They did the work, I didn't. My pattern is only one more "Tool" in their tool kit and, to me, has no more importance than a certain gouge or what wood they chose to use. When I release a pattern I am giving everyone that bought it to use it - I let go of "owning" that pattern in a way.

I do think that carving shows need to ask a couple of simple questions of the entry form for every piece that is entered into competition ... "Is this work totally original? Has it been worked from a pattern or set of instruction created by someone else?" Those two question would tell the show where to place the work for judging as I believe that the advanced carving categories
should include original design work and original pattern work as well as quality carving. If it has been worked from a pattern or concept then it goes in the beginner to intermediate classes. I don't think that carvings worked from patterns or instructions should be kept out of competition because you would be eliminating sooo many hobby carvers.

There are some patterns that I create that are "Just Mine!". For whatever
reason I want to keep them as mine and really don't want to "share". So I don't post the
work or use it in an article or book. I did that one time only, posted something where I really didn't want to share the pattern but just wanted to show off the finished work ... Boy, did I get slammed about "Where's that Pattern?" Never again ... Grin.

Now, Alfie, this is just my reaction! Mike and I fight over Chip Chats when it hits our mail box because we both want to see if any of my patterns made it into the magazine. I have seen my little Barn pattern in almost every issue and I am just filled with joy when there is a mention of a ribbon with the carver's name. "Cause ya see, Alfie, my pattern was clear enough, my
instructions good enough, and my concept exciting enough that someone was able to follow it and win a ribbon - so I sort of "won a ribbon" too!

I don't think this is an issue about copyright because the pattern and instructions were published and therefore meant to be used. Nor is it ethics if the carving show did not specify "No Carvings From Patterns!". It's about feelings!!!!
Susan

[Fishgap]

Just to clear.

I strongly believe that you learn by copying. And I stand behind it.

I also believe that if you see a carving and you have the skill to make one for yourself and family or friends, absolutely.. it seems to be a large part of the Carving Club scene.
Forgive me Susan but you also sell those patterns to be copied in return for $

But if I copied your carving exactly and entered it as my own and won ribbons.

That’s where I am lost in my feelings.

[bygeorge]

Alfie, this is a tough one for me for it is difficult for me to put myself in your place. Having only carved for the past two years and being high on the learning curve, I would be just amazed and flattered that anyone would copy my work. As a matter of fact, most of the work I have done to date has been copies (for myself or gifts). Copying or using other people's work is how I have been learning the craft.

Judging from you note, it doesn't appear that the individual was at all bothered by the fact he had copied your work and in his heart did not feel that he had done any wrong. For me, to put an exact copy into competion and claim it as my own, would be wrong and I could not possible take any pride in any ribbon or award won by it. That doesn't make me any better than this fella, it just comes down to your own moral compass and ethics.

I hear your pain. For those of you who have the creative gift, this has to be tough.

Chuck

[Thor]

Fishgap,
I sympathize with your feelings on this issue. I have read about artists who have been copied by a big chain store before, and a few of the cases have gone on to court with the help of pro-bono working lawyers for the cause of artists being copied, mass produced and sold for a fraction of the artists' orginal garden pieces. "Niche" trade magazine and "Craftsmen" magazine have both covered articles in the past on this.

Unfortunately, the judges should have been told, or known these pieces were copies, and disqualified them in my opinion. At the very least, the application rules of the shows should state that kits, or copies will not be accepted as original works. Often this is the case in art competitions, but hard to inforce without the cooperation of the competitors.

I feel like others that it comes down to scrupples of the individuals who benefitted from your willingness to share your knowledge.

Thor