[Don by the lake]

Hi Guys,
I'm sure many of you have been down this road before. I would like to teach some carving classes in my shop at home. I already have a few people interested but haven't started yet. I guess my first question would be about liability. Do you get individuals to sign a waiver not to hold you responsible if they get a bad cut or do you just get extra insurance. Or do you just not worry about because wood carvers never cut themselves. Second question is what is a fair fee to charge for what length of time in a class. I guess the third question would be ,do I need to start an official business? Advice would be appreciated. I have taught a few classes when I belonged to a carving club and they went pretty well. I have learned so much from other carvers that I think I should start sharing some of what I know. What do you guys think?

Don

[Ron D]

i never taught a class but the first thing i would do was get them to sign a waver and i think i would buy a couple of carving gloves for them to use till they get comfortable with the knife

ron

[Colin_Partridge]

Don I would have them sign a waiver for sure that you are not reponsible for any injuries incured while carving. I was teaching a class and I was with the student sitting right beside her. I was about to yell "get your hand away from that cutting edge when she plunged a V gouge right into her hand it happened so fast and although I could see it happening I was unable to stop it. She got stitches and was ok but what a nasty cut. Your fee will depend on you and your reputation and expertise as a carver. I took a three day seminar with Jeff Phares and it was $400.00 each and there were 12 of us. Now of course Jeff Phares is very well known and an excellent instructor so you pay top dollar. You have to take into consideration what a fair wage is for you and what it will cost you to run the course in materials and space. Are you going to provide lunch and beverages, etc, etc. As for class length depends on you and the students I find about three hours in the morning and three in the afternoon with an hour for lunch is sufficient. It will also depend on the level of expertise of the class you are teaching. It is also up to you about starting as a business the logistics of taking on that could be mind boggling. There are so many things to think of when doing courses that I tend to shy away from them although I get requests all the time to run courses. Its up to you dont let me burst your bubble I am not trying to dissuede you at all just my take on it having done it a few times. Hope I have been of some help.
Colin

[Plain_Ol_Ed]

As much as I hate to say it, I'd see a lawyer as my first step ... One thing they'll tell you is that waivers are nice, but their not worth the paper their printed on.

Ed

[AlArchie]

Not to bust any bubbles, but those "liability waivers" are good for absolutely nothing! Maybe the folks who sign them believe it, but they have virtually no legal standing. Might help in a court case with a jury, but it is not a remedy.

Still it is a good idea to have them signed, as a matter of convincing your students that they have agreed to hold you free of liability. I think I'd make sure everyone picking up a knife has their medical coverage, though, unless you have a policy that covers them in case of injury.

Check withyour home owners insurance....they may or may not need a rider on your policy. that would probably be a minimal expense, but check, none the less.



Al

[Mitchell]

Please "teach" safety first. There's no harm in having them sign a waiver. It really protects you both. You for the obvious - the student because it REALLY makes them aware of the dangers (beginners)

Your price should depend as much on the level of student (IMO). If you have beginners, then the price could be lower. This would encourage return visits. I assume you are really doing it for the money, but would want to make it worth your effort. If they are doctors, charge 'em double; lawyers = 4X..... just kidding. Well, about the doctors anyway.

I don't know about the business part. I suppose that you should try it a couple of times to see if could really turn into a long term deal before making the business decision.

Lastly, I think that teaching others is a good way to learn. I have found that when I help others, I actually pick things up that I either did not realize i was doing, or find another way to do it (based on the other person's point of view). Good luck and keep us informed.

[Hugh]

I'm wondering about all of this. If the students are using their own tools, and none of yours, how would you be responsible for injuries??

[Ashbys]

Hugh,

I think that would be because of the attitude of "I am never responsible for my actions, it is always someone else fault. " ly it's a concept many people have and use. And one our court system seems to support with trival insane lawsuits. Like the McDonald"s coffee case "I didn't know it was hot". "Well yes I knew it was hot , but not that hot!" The pathic part is the woman won the suit and was awarded alot of money.
Because of these type of awards there are many people that are looking for Something for nothing and often get it. From a carving perspective using what happened to Collin just say the student did just a bit more damage and cut a tendon, very easy to do. So she says it was Collins fault because she knew the knife was sharp But not that sharp! Given the same jury she could win a settlement which would include life long damages. to say but could happen.
If your thinking of doing classes, I would say check your insurance, many home owner policies disclaim anything to do with the operation of business. Since you would be teaching for money the insurance could say they were not responsible for any liability as it was a business operation. The wavers can help as they can be considered contracts, if they are properly worded, if the correct information is supplied on them. Then the first thing to do is to teach a real safety program, and inform the students of excatly what kind of damage can happen. And have your class format in a written form and give a quick safety quiz at the end of you safety section. Only 5- 7 question but it would insure that the student was given the safety information and was aware of the possible hazard.
Also I would suggest that you have an updated first aid course, many things have changed because of aids and hepititus, it would also insure your aware of how to handle a cut , and a bloodborne pathagen. Also become aware of the new clean-up requirements. Sounds like a pain and it is but it might save your life.

Ash

[decoycarve]

I have taught a few classes in the past. One way around the legalities is to teach for someone else. I used to teach for Craftwoods and they were responsible for the class. I do teach out of our shop ocasionally and A legal freind worked this up for me.

WAIVER AND ASSUMPTION OF RISK

The undersigned,_______________(Customer), voluntarily
makes and grants this Waiver and Assumption of Risk in favor of
__________________(Seller) as partial consideration (in addition
to monies paid to Seller) for the opportunity to use the
facilities, equipment, materials and/or other assets of Seller;
and/or to receive assistance, training, guidance, tutelage
and/or instruction from the personnel of Seller; and/or to
engage in the activities, events, sports, festivities and/or
gatherings sponsored by Seller; I do hereby waive and release
any and all claims whether in contract or of personal injury,
bodily injury, property damage, damages, losses and/or death
that may arise from my aforementioned use or receipt, as I
understand and recognize that there are certain risks, dangers
and perils connected with such use and/or receipt, which I
hereby acknowledge have been fully explained to me and which I
fully understand, and which I nevertheless accept, assume and
undertake after inquiry and investigation of extent, duration
and completeness wholly satisfactory and acceptable to me.

I further agree to use my best judgment in undertaking
these activities, use and/or receipt and to faithfully adhere t,
all. safety instructions and recommendations, whether oral or
written. I hereby certify that I am a competent adult assuming
these risks of my own free will, being under no compulsion or duress.
This Waiver and Assumption of Risk is effective from ____/_____/_____
To ______/______/_____, inclusive, and may not be revoked, altered, amended,
Rescinded or voided without the express prior written consent of seller.

_________________________ __________________________
Print Name Date

_________________________ __________________________
Customer’s Signature Signature Of Parent / Gaurdian(if Under Legal Age)

Address


Sue this is the one that I was trying to email you a while back. I finaly sat down and retyped it in word format instead of the .wzd it was in.
Goody

[kaiserb]

My Experience with waivers. I worked for a breif time as a safety and oversite officer for and ongoing construction job. We routinely had people sign waivers for this that and the other thing. And you are correct waivers are just paper when it gets down to brass tacks. However the waivers true purpose is to prove you informed the signer of possible injuries. It is not a waiver per se but an acknowledgment by the signer that they are participating in something risky.

Each week we had a safety meeting and each week every employee, and site attendee, read the meeting agenda and signed the attendance sheet stating that they had been informed of the job site dangers. This helped to reinforce the potential dangers of the job.

Additoinally we gave a written safety quiz to each person on the site.

Doing the above items limited our liablity in 3 ways:

1. You were informed of the dangers before starting work (the waiver)
2. You were kept up to date and reminded of the dangers (the safety talks) [these can be 5 min long they do not have to be an hour]
3. You demonstrated that you understood the risks (the safety quiz taken by you signed by you with a passing score 80% or higher)

When someone was injured the dime a dozen lawyers would call and start litigation. 9/10 because of the documentation we had with the waivers, meeting minutes, and quizzes. We were able to walk away before court as the lawyers will all tell you ... he with the most documentation generally wins in court.

My advise is to be prudent, dont try to cover everything with a waiver. Teach safety as the first class and give a quiz. Then have the first few min of every class be a safety breifing. Set a precident of prudence and you will be fine.