[Eddy Smiles]

I was going back through the archives this evening and a thought struck me . I saw a lot of really neat carvings, many of which I plan to try and carve myself after developing my own patterns. Now I have no doubt that I can do it as I've already made some original carvings from patterns that I drew. But what bothers me is that the items that I want to carve came from someone else's "old" or "young" gray matter. Is it stealing to use another's idea. If we were the record industry and we were talking about CD's the answer would be clear. And in my mind there are a lot of similarities because many of the carvings that I looked at were developed from commercial patterns, rough-outs and blanks.

And what happens if after I've carved the figure someone comes to me and says that they really like it and want to borrow my pattern. Doesn't this add further insult to injury to the original carver's work?

A friend of mine that is a great carver and teacher is a strick traditionalist and doesn't believe in using anyone elses work... instead keeping everything original.

I'm not sure that's really practical and I'm just curious as to how others feel about using fellow carvers ideas and sharing patterns with out regard to where they came from.... especially from some of the folks on this forum who I assume from comments and websites carve for a living.

What's appropriate and when is it considered crossing the line?

By the way, I did a couple of searches looking for this subject matter and couldn't find one that addressed my question directly. If anyone remembers a thread, please post the link.
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[Pete Rieger]

I think this is an excellent topic although I'm not really clear on what is entirely ethical or unethical. Although I will say direct copying of someone else's work and claiming it as your own design or labelling it "original art" is simply pathetic, and is considered copyright infringement on intellectual property here in Canada. Now, using other people's work as inspiration and modifying the design, hopefully improving it is something I consider acceptable. If I produce a carving from a pattern in a book I'll say it's from a pattern,but I got in the habit of modification early on, and I prefer to work from reference photos anyway.Take woodspirits, for example,I've studied Gargac's work,but never tried to copy it, probably couldn't anyway.I study faces more,real faces,because that's what I'm trying to carve, a couple years later and I'm still finding subtleties I missed up until now. If I copy carvings, I'm carving what other people see, and miss, as well.My #1 rule is "know your subject".Work from the real life image.Study carvings for representations of features and different techniques. But overall be original,it's better than being called on it later.When in doubt, contact the artist and ask for permission.

[Thomp]

If i see something i would like to carve ill ask the person who carved it for their thoughts on my trying their idea, and i expect the same.

but lets face it most folks cant duplicate there own carvings as there will be some little detail that is added or missed in the followings after the original... most carvers i'v asked find it an honor for someone to ask permission to carve a likeness after their pattern..

lets face it no one can come up with a subject thats never been carved, everybody carves santa, cowboys and elves... how many predicements can you position a charter in before your infringing on somebody elses stance or grin, eye or beard...

how a cowboy stands all lanky & slack kneed, tired looking, the human body can only be positioned in so many ways,

i think the intent is the key here...

most carvers are generally kind and easy going folks, and a special paient breed.. that dont get too riled over the little things...

as far as music, i guess it would even be against the copyright laws if you carved a record...

maybe i missed the point, this has been discussed several times on the board, im sure there are better answers and replies than mine if you look for them

[whitecree]

Art & artists build upon one another. I'll see something that I want to try - perhaps just an overall shape - then I'll fill in my own details. I will also give credit where it is due by saying "I got the idea from such & so."

If I come up with an idea of my own, draw it out, then brag about it to others, I don't mind if someone else gives it a try. But if somebody copies my work outright, then claims he/she did it all by themselves, then I begin to get annoyed.

If you copy somebody elese's work, right down to all the details and then say it is your own work, that is plagiarism, plain and simple.

And don't you just love the wway the recording industry lawyers are going at things?

[Lynn O. Doughty]

In all the years I have carved and at the same time have freely given out my ideas, designs and patterns I have never seen anyone who has produced a piece exactly like mine. Even if you sat right next to me in my shop and I instructed and assisted you in carving one of my designs that piece would still not look exactly like the one I did. You might be able to reproduce an exact copy with a painting as you can always go back and retouch it. However, carving on wood is just a little bit different.

Would I get upset if I found out that someone was cashing in on my patterns by claiming credit for them. Sure, who wouldn't? But who really pays the ultimate price here....Me because someone stole my ideas or the person who is passing them off as theirs? I can live with that.

When I started my little Blog the whole idea was to pass along hints and tips, patterns and photos that would in some way help someone else get as much fun out of carving as I do. So please, if you see one of my pieces you like ......Have at it! Just send me a photo when you're done so I can see if my idea is working.

[Kenny_S]

We have had this discussion before and it is another can of worms that will be beat to death.
So Eddy, if someone likes your carving and ask if they can carve it, Flattery for sure. but then, it is up to the individual.
Lynn said it best. no one can carve exactly like the original carver.
I believe it can help a carver. I have taken one class and carve a rough out of Vicki Biship's Santa "Nick". I believe I done her justice and I was pleased with the carving,but it sure wasn't to her level of carving.

[susieq]

Years ago in a carving class I used to attend, we as a group decided to carve a santa as it was fall and would probably be Christmas before the thing was done.

Our teacher sent off for 15 or 20 of the same Stu Martin roughout of a mountain man Santa in buckskins, carrying a tree and wearing a hatchet on his belt. We were all looking at the same print out of what the thing should look like when finished. Nobody's finished piece looked like anyone elses piece in that class.

Unless someone makes a deliberate attempt to duplicate someone elses work, I don't worry about it. If a carver is so good that they can copy someone elses work, why on earth would they??? If they are that good they would be doing their own thing and making a name for themselves, not trying to pass their work off as someone elses work.... That would truly be pathetic.

Having said that, I do get ideas from other's work. If I see a pattern that looks interesting, I will re work it to my own satisfaction and it will be a different pattern when I get finished with it. I think we all get ideas from looking at what someone else has done and there is nothing wrong with that.....at least not in my mind.
susieq

[William]

There's a large market for carvings that look exactly like the original and it's a growing market. A 100 year old "Snakey-neck" mallard by the Caines brothers will bring $200,000 and up, that's out of reach for most people but they will pay $500 for a "Caines Style" decoy (that's easier to reproduce than an equally priced traditional decoy).

The Ward World Championship competition will be in Ocean City at the end of this month and a few years ago they recognized the demand for antique style decoys and added a division just for them.
From the rules:" (3.) Entries can be inspired by old decoys from geographic areas but must be the carver's original design and interpretation of an 'old' decoy",
(It's unclear where that line is that defines "carver's original design" and too much like the "old decoy".)
"(4.) Decoys should be made to look old by the manner in which they are carved, painted and finished."

Bill
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[Hi_Ho_Sliver]

Painting is the same way, I did a seascape one time that a neighbor loved and wanted to buy....she bought it and I liked it too so decided to do another, couldn never get the same feeling and light as the first.....

[Shimmy]

I can understand someone that is copying one of Lynn's projects .,that is truly copying.( Which I did doing the Cook.) But if someone carves an animal or a santa.A deer is a deer.The owner cannot say it is his pattern.There are millions of Santas carved .who can say it is theirs?Like I said A scene project is a different thing.