Few questions about outdoor signs

[scrolling days]

Hi, Gang.......I'm just visiting from the scrollsaw forum, and I thought I would bounce something off of you woodcarving experts.

I would like to make a sign out of cedar, as it is intended for outdoor use, and I would like it to last a long time. There will be some lettering cut in relief and I would like those letters to stand out.

I heard that "black pigments" can be used to darken the cut letters for contrast. Is this something you guys would agree with, and what product would you recommend/where to get them. I've used stains and paints before, but never "pigments" and I'm not sure if there is something special I should know.

Also, would you recommend protecting the cedar with anything for outdoor use (I live in Western New York), or do you think the natural cedar, if left alone, will do fine. I know it will gray over time, and the grain will lift (that's fine, since that's kind of the look I'm looking for) but I want it to remain structurally sound for many years.

Thanks!!

[brent]

I don't like cedar to much. Red cedar is tough and western cedar can be very brittle.
You can tint (if that is what you want to call it) the background or the letters themselves, for a stand out contrast.
You can also apply a polyurethane to the sign to help protect the wood or leave it and let it age naturally.
Best of luck!

[twymanok]

I agree with brent, I don't know too terribly much about pigments but I am a fan of Spar Varnish for outdoor signs, it has UV inhibitors that can help protect the wood color.

[northwood bob]

I also have not worked with pigments but have worked with colored stains with very good success. A couple of years ago I did a relief carving out of cedar. The carving was of a gold finch and sunflowers (you can see this on my gallery). Carving the cedar was quite difficult probably due to the sap and tannins in the wood. It did, however, hold up quite nicely to the weather.

What I attempted first was to use Thompsons Water Seal on the piece. My goal was to not have the look of a "varnish" over the stained relief. This created several problems with warpage due to differing depths of carving. When the humidity was high, the warp would disappear, when the humidity got into the 40% range, the warp would be extremely apparent (about 2" on 30")I worked with marine spar varnish on either the back side and finally the whole piece. In the future, I think that this is the direction that I would persue at the onset.

Hope I was of some help
Bob

[Claude]

Hi, Shawn.
I agree with leaving the cedar unvarnished so it'll gray over time. If the letters are incised into the wood, which is what I think you are saying, then the black contrast should make them much more visible. Pigments are what colors paint of any sort. I'd suggest staying away from acrylics, as the letters paint tends to dry with a shine, and I think a dull or flat look would be better. A water-based stain or dye (like RIT for clothes) would probably disappear over time as weather would likely "wash away" the color over time. Probably an oil-based wood stain or maybe flat black enamel paint would be best, as the oils would tend to soak into the cedar, taking the pigment along, for a more permanent color. You might need to mask off the surface of the wood to protect against accidental coloring... And, take a piece of scrap wood, cut a letter or part of one into it, and try out the stain there first to see how it looks and also to see if there is a wicking problem into the wood near the surface where it would show. If you see wicking on the scrap, you might try some Minwax Sanding Sealer on the surface before applying the stain to the letters - again on the scrap piece first.

Good luck, and please let us know what you finally decide on, and show us a photo of the how it looks!

Claude

[bob easton]

Originally Posted by scrolling days

... There will be some lettering cut in relief and I would like those letters to stand out. ...

There's a bit of difference between what you say, and what Claude says when he asks about incised letters. I read your "cut in relief" as meaning raised letters, not incised.

Here's something to consider, which I got from Chris Pyle's book on Lettercarving. Chris suggests using incised lettering, not relief lettering for outdoor use. The reason is that the relief lettering exposes more end grain to the elements and will rot quicker.

I usually like a lot of Claude's advice. He's right on the money with most subjects. Yet, here's one place where I'll disagree. Cedar is a relatively durable wood, rotting much less quickly than many other species. That's why it is favored for boat building. Yet, even in that application, builders always use several layers of paint or varnish to keep the elements off the bare wood. Leaving it bare is asking for, not only the nice gray patina, but quicker rot onset.

Lastly, ****sharpen**** your tools. Cedar isn't nearly as nice to carve as basswood, or even some of the more even tempered hardwoods.

Just finished a cedar project, where I found that cedar’s texture runs from imminently carvable to imminently crushable. In places it is soft and stringy and only a slicing cut will work. More about that project at: Bob Easton Blog Archive Name Boards for Canoes

Good luck with the signs, and show us some pics when you're done.

[carvingbarn]

If this is a sign for you and you will have access to it, a good coat of cedar oil twice a year will keep it looking fresh. If you are good on the scroll saw you could cut the letters out of one board dark stain a back board and laminate them together. I have done that before.

[Gulf Coast Handyman]

Welcome Shawn, what do you think of spiral blades, I hear they take a little getting used to? Sorry I can't help with your question, I have not carved an outdoor sign.

Dave

[Claude]

Originally Posted by bob easton

...Yet, here's one place where I'll disagree. Cedar is a relatively durable wood, rotting much less quickly than many other species. That's why it is favored for boat building. Yet, even in that application, builders always use several layers of paint or varnish to keep the elements off the bare wood. Leaving it bare is asking for, not only the nice gray patina, but quicker rot onset.

No problem, Bob. My mistake: I should have said my experience with cedar has been with fences and posts at the farm, plus some stuff I've read, one of which was the use of the sanding sealer... We didn't put any preservative on the posts or fences. Both lasted for years, but eventually did rot away... With 8 acres of raspberries on our farm, I spent a fair amount of time and energy digging post holes for replacements... Maybe, we should have put some preservative on...

Claude

[scrolling days]

Thanks everybody for the great advice!

I'm sorry....I should have been more clear with what I meant by "relief." I am actually planning on making the sign exactly as Randy stated, by scrolling out the letters. The sign is to be double sided, so I intend to scroll my lettering into 2 separate 1" cedar boards, and placing a thinner layer of wood between as a backing (which will work in both directions).

The sign will be in a place where I won't be able to refinish it often, so I would like to leave it as natural as possible, I guess. In fact, the sign it is replacing is a weathered grey cedar sign, which has just become brittle with age and has fractured in places.

Thanks for the advice on the black......I had visited a wooden sign making web site, and they talked about using black pigments, and I wasn't sure what that was all about. Thanks for the great advice on that Claude.

Hi, Dave......I'm actually not a big fan of spiral blades. The vast majority of the scrolling I do is the creation of wooden jigsaw puzzles cut from 1/4 wood. (If you're interested, you can see my stuff at www.fergusonpuzzles.com . Check out my gallery) To get the fine/thin kerf I desire, I use a very thin (2-0) flat blade. The spirals would leave two wide a kerf, with pieces which fit too loosely.

For other applications, I hear the spiral blades are great, and some friends of mine on the scrollsaw forum swear by them!