[Dave_from_Toronto]

There is an interesting letter in the new issue of WCI. It has to do with copying other's work and not giving credit for idea, design, etc. My question is: At what point do we infringe on peoples rights of 'ownership' when we copy an idea or design for a carving. Should we give credit for a plan?; what about an idea? I've gotten ideas from pictures, reallife, carvings, figures in other media (porcelain, clay, resin) etc. - should I be attributing in every case?

I've never entered (or even attended) a carving competition. How do the rules for these contests treat these issues. I've seen separate categories for 'roughouts' versus 'original' work. How is 'original' work defined.

I don't sell my work, but I guess the rules apply more stringently when there is money involved.

What do you think? Please share your thoughts.

This kind of looks like a debate that could go on forever.......but I'll weigh in with my 2 cents anyway.

There are numerous patterns available for sale, depicting everything from caricatures, to religious themes in both relief and round, to birds, fish and mammals. Reproducing, for other than your own use (for sale) these PATTERNS would definitely be a infringement on the copyright status of the maker of the patterns.

However, carvings made from these patterns, as a product of what the patterns were designed to provide, are the exclusive property of the carver. An individual carver may or may not feel obligated to credit the pattern maker. Their choice!

Carvings made of historic reference, such as reliefs of Michaelangelo's works, would most likely be identified as 'A Relief of Michaelangelo's ~~~~~~~~Whatever', by I. M. Acarver. You get the idea. (How many Last Supper carvings are out there floating around?) If reproducing such a piece in wood, of a living artist or his estate, it may be necessary to obtain permission, but my bet would be that a titled piece, say, 'A Relief of George's 'Flying Geese' Watercolor, circa 1986' would sufficiently relieve the carver of copyright infringement problems.

Some of the carvings I have done have been BASED ON either photos or artwork of others I have seen and been inspired by.
I don't believe I have EVER simply transposed one of these into a carving. Rather I have incorporated segments into a preliminary sketch and then elaboated on the basic concept, perhaps using other reference material, or my own imaginative representations. A lot has been enhanced with some of my own photography, so I consider these the result of my own initiative, even though the idea may have originated from someone else's images.

For instance, the relief carving I did of the Ashland Soo Line Depot was based on an architectural drawing by the firm proposing the reconstruction. I made my measurements for the preliminary sketches from this drawing. Then my own photograph was superimposed onto the sketch, and factors from other published, historical photos were added to enhance the overall work.

A similar process is being used for the development of the Decapod steam engine carving to add to the 2 piece display. I've 'borrowed' a photo of the original engine from the internet, taken my own photos of the same engine and utilized my photos of scale model railroad engines, pictures of scale models from catalogs, and combined segments of all of these into my own sketches, and added my own 'musings' into the final design. I don't believe this in any way infriges on the copyrights of the original photo, as it was used mainly for reference, and similarly, only specific parts of the photo were used.

Personally, I haven't used any roughouts, but when an original artist agrees to producing and selling the roughout version of his/her work, copyrights are transferred by the sale, and the finished carving is truly that of the person who completes it.
There may be an individual ethic here that would dictate giving credit to the original creator of the piece, but no matter how detailed the purchased roughout is, the end result will be the work of the finishing carver.

There are many instances where someone could strive to reproduce anothers work exactly and market it as their own, and I would see this as a definite infringement. For instance, taking photos of one of Nancy's Santas and making an exact copy for sale as thier own. (would this be possible????)
Even then, copying one of these pieces for your own possession would not quallify as an infringement. Sell that darn thing AND THE CIRCUMSTANCES CHANGE IMMEDIATELY!

A blatant effort such as that would be grounds for a court to decide, and would denegrate the copying artists credibility to a great degree.

So, inmo , using someone else's theme for a base to begin your own carving is certainly permissible. How close it folows the original, and how much effort was used to 'copy' is the crux of the debate!

Boy this went longer than I figured on....sorry!

Al

[Nancy_G]

Santa carving is my passion and I've hit a dry spell with no new ideas. Teri (blast her) comes up with those incredible book Santas. I could easily copy that idea. I could put one of MY Santas in a book. I can just see my curly beards turning into the curling edges of pages. I can see a little mouse peeking out of the edge.
I look at Callynne's and the Gibbs' Santas and ache to copy.

I have a great collection of lovely Fitz & Floyd ceramic Santas. Check out http://www.traders2.com/fitz&floyd/index.htm I could copy, with changes, any of those. But IMHO that's not the way to do it if I'm going to post its photo on the web and/or sell it.
Making a few minor changes in someone else's work doesn't make it your own.
There - I've gotten that off my chest. Forgive me?

I agree with Nancy - it's perfectly okay (and actually a great way to learn and grow!) to take inspiration from another's work, but it's important that you then let that inspiration take you to new places.

Teri

[Colin_Partridge]

I also agree with the others an exact copy of someones work to me is just that a copy it wasent your idea it was someone elses. I have seen these at carving shows and said to myself he or she just copied Harold Enlow or other carvers who put out books on carving. Having said that I know that some people have not way of putting their ideas into a carving and that is the only way they can carve. That is ok too but if they sell that carving then I think it is not right. I have just purchased three santa blanks from Tim Berry and I am carving them right now. When I am finished they are going to my three children I would never sell them out of respect to Tim.
I have had other carvers that copy me and you know its kind of flattering when they do but when one carvers who copied me sold four of his carvings that were exactly the same as mine (in fact one I carved for him and gave it to him and he sold it) I was very insulted and havent contacted him since.
Well that is also my two cents worth I am truly inspired by all of you on this message board I take your opinions and apply them I also sometimes take your ideas and modify them but I would never in a thousand years copy one of your carvings exactly and sell it.
Colin

Some carver's that sell patterns say specifically somewhere in the pattern whether the carved piece can be sold or used for fun or profit.
I know a guy that entered a carved bust in a show and won a blue ribbon. The carving came from a pattern, and was carved from a roughout. I know for a fact that he took a class & his instructor carved one eye and some of the other features to help this guy along. Well, he brought it to my class and had me carve the other eye. So he did VERY LITTLE ..if any of the face. He also entered this piece in a 'NO Roughout' catagory. I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but to say grrrrr!!! > what a low down character!

I sell roughouts of my original carvings. The roughout is no more than a wooden form. A beginner sometimes has a problem viusalizing their work, and others like to get at the detailing as soon as possible. They have a choice to copy my work, or make it their own work by finishing it as they see it. Much like someone picking up a piece of driftwood and seeing a face. I do not have a problem with someone selling a carving from one of my roughouts as long as it is their finished work.

I have seen many Santa Eggheads from my tutorial at different shows, but carvers have been carving Santas on eggs long before me. I do get upset when someone downloads my tutorial from the internet to give as handouts during a class for their profit.

Carvers see so many different styles, that something will stick in their mind. They may unintenionally copy that in their next carving. I feel very flattered that someone has taken enough interest in my work.

In the end it does upset me for someone to intenionally copy a design without getting proper approval.

[jamesfa]

well this topic could generate a lot of discusion.legally a work must demontrate some degree of creativity when putting a concept into tangible form.prior to 1978 a copyrightable work that is publicly displayed must have the copyrightnotice,owner
name,and dated or it falls into public domain and not protected
since 1989 the above notice is not required,but the continued use of same defeats any defense on the part of the copier.unless the copyright notice is displayed someone copying could claim innocent infringement..the cost to copyright a work in1995 and a lot of paper work was $20.00.
i would think that the law was created to prevent someone producing quantities of someone else 's work commercially for profit.
e.g. taking one of tberry carvings and mass producing them and selling as tberry originals.
it would be worth the time and expense to persue a case like this and the law does provide recourse.
the other part of this disscusion in the moral issue which is taking somebody elses work in whole or in part and calling it your own and selling it or entering it into a competition,it most be a very hollow victory if you should win.

[woodenleg]

... and then there is the rest of us that just carve for fun and don't enter shows and don't sell carvings (I probably WOULD if my work was good enough ). We're just in it to have a good time and have something to pull us away from that horrible TV!

Being in a profession, however, that does have authorship at its base, I am aware of these problems. They just don't have any impact on some of us.

I have just seen a new book today. I did not need to buy it, because I can find most of the information in my own Santa Egg Tutorial that is featured on Len Dillon's website. The author even went so far as to copy the center finder and renamed it a 'line drawing tool'. I know because that particular center finder is only sold locally. His book is based on caricatures and my tutorial was a Santa.