Pfeil or Woodcrafts Numbering system?

[Hi_Ho_Sliver]

Actually, I wish I had bought the "european" size....I rarely do any large carvings and the smaller size would have been much better for me .....just my opinion.

[jmuscel]

I am in no way shape or form an expert, just a begginer but I have a set of 6 full size Swiss Made and I love them. I've been using them as hand tools and am only now beginning to experiment with a Mallet. Uh Hey Mark, can I have your set of intermediate tools since you don't use them?

[chuckbolton]

i guess the point is-- we each find what works the best for each of us. i know people that dont ever use anything but palm tools and a few that only use mallet full sized tools-- i dont want to carry around that many-- so im trying to arrive at 15=20 that will cover what i want to do-- i found out that often its not the tool its the operator that is the problem. i have purchased tools that an instructor used and couldnt make it do near what the teacher could do with it-- it finally dawned on me "operator error." go-- carve and have a great time.

[Jim-Iowa]

Thanks all for your input! I have a couple intermediates(German) I bought yrs ago from Track of The Wolf ( a muzzloading builders supply in Minnesota) for some previous projects, they have served me well. I had mentioned in another thread that I was considering Stubai and Ashley Iles. Well I have discovered that what I had intended to spend would get me 1-2 extras Pfeil gouges so Pfeil it is.
I have taken into consideration what you all have said, and have a deep admiration for Marks work and apreciate his advice and opinions.
I will keep my purchases 12MM and under at this time.
However since I have small hands and want to learn "TOTAL Tool Control" I think I will get a half dozen intermediates and see what happens from there. If I decide later I want full size, Oh Well not the first time I blew money and then did it over right.
"You pays your money and takes your chances".
Thanks again everyone!

[chuckt]

Well - this just seems to reconfirm the notion that there are nearly as many tools and methods as there carvers. ;-)

I have seen articles about carvers who made their own gouges & knives out of old metal files or nails and who do some pretty amazing work. Heck, you work at something long enough and I am sure you could do great work with just about anything - sharpened rocks even. It really does all come down to the operator's ability and skill as ChuckBolton notes.

That said - most folks just getting into carving have limited knowledge, finite resources, and no real experience (by definition as beginners) - and are looking for some guidance from those more experienced.

This is where it always gets hard to answer - since there are so many individual variables involved. Which is why most everyone says that beginners should NOT rush out a buy sets of gouges or lot's of tools from any one manufacturer - so you can develop a feel for it over time and come to discover what works best for you.

But to me it seems to come down to the intersection of three main questions:

- what's your budget? (this will determine how many tools and of what quality you can initially aquire and add over time)

- what do you want to carve?
(Mark might disagree with me here - not sure - since he seems to feel that Full Sized tools are the only tools anyone could ever need no matter what they want to carve.) Me I see differing preferences for:

1. small caricature work - knife and palm gouges in a range of sweeps and in smaller widths seem to be the norm here

2. pure chip carving - just need a decent chip knife

3. relief carving - depending on the sizes you want to work at and what feels good to you either palm, Intermediate, or Full Sized gouges (in a range of sweeps and widths)

4. Architectural & small to larger "in the round" or sculptural pieces - you're more likely to want intermediate or full size gouges

These are not hard & fast rules obviously. But this seems to be the norms if you observe who is doing what and with what tools. You get some who do everything with a box cutter (like Lynn), or with Full Sized gouges (like Mark), or Intermediate gouges like Chuck - and that's ok.

Because ultimately it comes down to:
- what feels good to you and allows you make clean cuts on your projects?

Me I started with Flexcut palms & knives because all I was interested in carving intially was woodspirits in hiking sticks and bark. But then I got interested in Relief carving and it seems you really want to have at least a few sweeps and different sizes of full sized gouges - so I followed Chris Pye's recommendations for a basic starter set (with a few more goodies thrown in based on other projects I saw and what the author recommended). I went with Swiss Made since MOST folks who had them seemed to like them a lot and I had an opportunity to get a bunch at a great price.

So all these variables have to come together in the right blend for YOU, and only YOU can really make that decision.

I am sure that Mark Y could carve fantastic caricatures 3 or 4 inches tall using only his Full Size gouges. Could anyone else? Probably if we tried - but would we be comfortable and prefer it to our knives and palms - not sure, but I tend to doubt it. Could Lynn carve a full fireplace surround of acanthus leaves with his "ol reliable"? Maybe - but would he want to? Doubt it.

I feel the best method for deciding is to look to the pros or serious carvers who carve the things I am interested in carving - and model what works for them as best I can. From tool selection to technique. Then build from there based on my own experience.

ChuckT
Sorry this got so long winded.

[chuckt]

Hey Jim - was composing mine while you posted yours. Sounds like you've made a well considered decision. I came to the same conclusion with regard to Stubai's and Ashley Isles. Couldn't justify the added cost when the Pfeils seemed to have just as solid a reputation and fan base. Best of luck with your purchase and most importantly - enjoy USING them. :-)

Cheers
ChuckT

[mark yundt]

Well Chuckbolton and Jim Iowa,,that's essentially what I have done. As Chuckt will see tomorrow when he visits,I have narrowed my selection to basically 20 or so chisels. With these I have carved 95+ percent of all the work you see me do or is on my site.
I can make a nice living with just these chisels and carve pretty much anything you want.

[xsailer]

Jim, I also have a complete set of Pfiel intermediates. I also have numerous other variety of gouges(Denny mostly). I have 5-8 full size tools(HT,Pfiel). I'm currently carving a 2"x16"x8ft piece and using all of the above with no problems. If I had a problem it would be I have too many tools to choose from. I'm grabbing from the whole pile and it gets confusing.(Too many tools? I've got to be kidding! I hope my carving buddies aren't reading this or my wife for heavens sake)
I'm not complaining understand. I like all of my selections. As I've said before though I'm always jealous of those that can carve with 5 or 6 tools and make beautiful carvings.
The problem is I carve small and large pieces so I use all I have. When I'm working large carvings I would like to have larger gouges to eliminate wood faster. Intermediates are working, it just takes more strokes.

[Plain_Ol_Ed]

I've pretty much done a 360. I started when I was 4 or 5 with a pocket knife making whistles and various toys. Stayed with the pocket knife for years. About 15 yeras ago got all excited about gouges and chisels. Bought a bunch of them. Used them for awhile, but have regressed to just whittling with a pocket knife until I find something I absolutely can't do with it the grab a tool that will do the job. Which is very seldom. So much for a couple thousand dollars worth of tools. I do have a nice collection though and continue to collect older tools, mostly Addis. Bear in mind that I'm strictly in it for the enjoyment, so I can do pretty much what I want and I'm in no big rush to get anything done. I seldom even use a band saw, just grab a piece of basswood and go for it. I used to do a lot of stuff in various hard woods (hard as in hard not as in deciduous) but just liked the ease of whittling basswood so gave the hard stuff up. I guess some of it comes with age. When you get old, you get slow. Now there's an interesting thought. When your young, you do everything fast and time takes forever to pass. When you get old, you do everything slow and time flies (with the exception of the time between SS checks)??? I guess it all depends on what we're doing and why we're doing it.

I've even given up on thnking everybody should learn to sharpen their own tools. Well, I still think that way, but have accepted the fact that it ain't gonna happen. With age comes mellowness.

With that, think I'll have a beer! Skoal! Compai! Cheers! Here's to ya' (whatever is said in your neck of the woods).